Why should one care that God exists?

[Deidre32]

I'm an atheist but also a former Christian. Instead if asking Christians to show me evidence of god's existence (which there is no objective proof; the Bible isn't proof of anything) why not tell me and other atheists, why is believing relevant? Why should anyone care if a god exists?

If a god exists, why does he/it need my buy in?

Why is believing in a god ...necessary to living a good and productive life? (It's not but I'm interested in learning from Christians here, why they feel otherwise)

Thanks!

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Deidre32]


So if you believe that you are an animal and all animals are equal you may start treating humans as animals. For example.

Or if you believe in karma then you will believe the less fortunate deserve their life and you will not be as compassionate.
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So it's not a matter of whether God exists but which god you follow. I like to be conscious of the God I follow and of all the gods I am aware of Jesus is the model for me.

I agree with some of your points here, but shouldn't we ALL be treating animals better, as God's creations?
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Great point about Karma and compassion. Except a I think a Buddhist or Hindu would say that one improves one's Karma by BEING compassionate.
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Which God? I agree somewhat that one becomes like the God that they worship. And if any human COULD be a god, Jesus would be a good candidate and worthy role model. But that is a huge "if". And he could be considered an excellent role model even as a completely human prophet or Rabbi, he does not need to be Divine for this.

But if we are talking about YHVH, Jesus' Father, and our Father...I agree, He is the best God to follow.

[Zzyzx]

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But if we are talking about YHVH, Jesus' Father, and our Father...I agree, He is the best God to follow.

Why?

On what basis can one conclude the God worshiped by Jews, Muslims and Christians is the "best God to follow" among the thousands of "gods" proposed, worshiped, feared, loved, promoted, and/or invented by humans?

What makes that God superior to (better than) competing gods?

[Elijah John]

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But if we are talking about YHVH, Jesus' Father, and our Father...I agree, He is the best God to follow.

Why?

On what basis can one conclude the God worshiped by Jews, Muslims and Christians is the "best God to follow" among the thousands of "gods" proposed, worshiped, feared, loved, promoted, and/or invented by humans?

What makes that God superior to (better than) competing gods?

Good question, and it has a lot to do with context. Most competing gods, in the time of the Bible writers were violent and orgiastic. Bloodthisrsty Pagan fertility deities. And while the ancient Hebrews were emerging from that enviroment, they were evolving BEYOND that background and renounced a lot of their barbaric practices. Not all, and not all at once, as the animal blood sacrifice Temple system was a remnant. But the Israelites eventually grew beyond those practices, with the help of the prophets and rabbis, and of necessity, with the destruction of the Temple.

YHVH, unlike competing gods, of the Mediterranean and Roman, Greek and Norse gods was ethical, and percieved to have an eternal, ethical code. (The Ten Commandments and other Laws and codes).

Granted, the account of Bible writers reflected their own biases and sometime tendencies toward violence. But many of the attributes they attributed to, or percieved in YHVH were quite advance for the time. The prohibition against idols and images, for example, was quite advanced compared to their neighbors attempts to portray their gods, as limited, lifeless images of stone and wood. The Hebrews had a conception of God as Living, and UNlimited.

The name of God as well, YHVH used almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible, has linguistic roots in the phrase "I AM", variously interpreted as the "ground of being", or "I cause to be, to become", and implications as the first Cause, the self-existent One.

Other gods, Pagan Gods were more like projections of ourselves, with offspring and familly, brothers, sisters, parents and whole pantheons.

But I like the way you admit that the God of Jews, Christians and Muslims is the same Abrahamic God, something that Christian Fundamentalists deny with regard to Muslims.

Oh, in modern times, the Hindu pantheon includes some barbaric ones, like Kali. And some tribal societies also worship various orgiastic and bloodthirsty gods. The Abrahamic God is much better than that, from my POV anyway.

[Zzyzx]

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What makes that God superior to (better than) competing gods?

Most competing gods, in the time of the Bible writers were violent and orgiastic. Bloodthisrsty Pagan fertility deities. And while the ancient Hebrews were emerging from that enviroment, they were evolving BEYOND that background and renounced a lot of their barbaric practices. Not all, and not all at once,

Granted, the account of Bible writers reflected their own biases and sometime tendencies toward violence. But many of the attributes they attributed to, or percieved in YHVH were quite advance for the time.

Perhaps the Hebrew God was visualized as having (or was given) characteristics at least somewhat improved over preceding "gods" two or three thousand years ago, but is still portrayed as jealous, vengeful, violent, warlike, genocidal, etc.

Is that the same God that is worshiped by Jews, Christians and Muslims today?

Other gods, Pagan Gods were more like projections of ourselves, with offspring and familly, brothers, sisters, parents and whole pantheons.

Do such projections somehow make those "gods" inferior or less worthy of worship?

Many human characteristics (including a son) are also projected onto the bible God. Does the same criticism apply?

[Deidre32]

[Replying to post 17 by Divine Insight]

Exactly, agree with a lot of what you said.

Also, so if one is a believer, it is because he/she is worried more about the after life than this one? Gaining eternity becomes a goal? Doing good here on earth only becomes necessary in terms of where you might be 'heading' in an after life?

The problem with obsessing about an afterlife is that one forget that this life is important and that helping others and so on, should be enough. Not 'what's in it for me' kind of thinking. That's what I disliked about Christianity, when I followed it. Sure, there were some compassionate people along the way, but it seems that the after life is a preoccupation for many, and doing good here on earth is hinged upon that concept. I've read even on this site that if there's no afterlife, no god, what would drive a person's morals?

Truth is evolution produced with it, the concept of altruism. If you look at other animal kingdoms, they take care of one another, naturally. Being kind and caring isn't a byproduct of religion, or even a tenet of it. It's a byproduct of evolution.

But as with most concepts, Christianity hijacks it and touts it as its own personal ''invention.''

[Divine Insight]

The problem with obsessing about an afterlife is that one forget that this life is important and that helping others and so on, should be enough. Not 'what's in it for me' kind of thinking. That's what I disliked about Christianity, when I followed it. Sure, there were some compassionate people along the way, but it seems that the after life is a preoccupation for many, and doing good here on earth is hinged upon that concept.

I agree it's an highly egotistical religion at it's core.

I've read even on this site that if there's no afterlife, no god, what would drive a person's morals?

Exactly. And the real irony there is that any Christian who claims that they would have no reason to be moral if there was no God is actually confessing that they have no morality at all.

Like you, I too was a Christian at one time. And I felt very close to God. And the reason for that feeling was because I too desire all things good.

Ironically this was also one of the things that made it extremely easy for me to dismiss the religion when I began to realize that the dogma was absurd. I simply realized that dismissing the religion does not automatically transform me into a person who loves evil and hates good.

That is utterly absurd.

And if I'm just as good of a person without the religion then clearly the religion has no value or meaning.

The Bible clearly states:

Psalms.14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

This is clearly false. Therefore the Bible contains outright lies. My sister is a convinced atheist and I would be hard pressed to find anyone who is more concerned about doing good works. She is a total vegan because she doesn't believe in eating animals. She has devoted her life to being a social worker to help battered woman and abused children. She is very compassionate and clearly cares about other people. She is easily brought to tears just hearing about total strangers having been hurt of suffering.

The Bible clearly has it all wrong. There is no way that Psalms can be true. Thus I know that the Bible contains outright lies.

[wiploc]

... Most competing gods, in the time of the Bible writers were violent and orgiastic. Bloodthisrsty Pagan fertility deities. And while the ancient Hebrews were emerging from that enviroment, they were evolving BEYOND that background and renounced a lot of their barbaric practices. Not all, and not all at once, as the animal blood sacrifice Temple system was a remnant. But the Israelites eventually grew beyond those practices, with the help of the prophets and rabbis, and of necessity, with the destruction of the Temple.

YHVH, unlike competing gods, of the Mediterranean and Roman, Greek and Norse gods was ethical, and percieved to have an eternal, ethical code. (The Ten Commandments and other Laws and codes).

You can't get more violent or less ethical than torturing people for eternity in Hellfire. So, by your standard, Jehovah was the worst of the available gods.

[wiploc]

Most of the values that you hold to be true came from some religious ideal;

That seems false on its face. Is there any reason to believe it?

they all share some core values, and frankly, atheism (out and out atheism/humanism) just hasn't been around that long.

That's absurd. Non-believers existed before religions were invented, and they have existed ever since.

Humanist values, ethics and morality are VERY much like most religious values, ethics and morality...so if you follow them, you are quite likely to live a 'good and moral life," just like your theist neighbors.

So, go ahead....but don't for one moment think that you don't owe them...and theism...for the basis of your own values and ethics. You do.

How do you figure? The fact that theists like a lot of the values that atheists like doesn't mean that theists invented them.

Since this is demonstrably true,

If it's demonstratively true, please demonstrate it.

then if there really is a God Who handed those morals and ethical values to us, then just perhaps one should care that God exists because He DID give us good values to live by.

In this context, what do you mean by "good"? If you use a religious test like "Whatever god orders is good," then the claim that god's values are good is empty and meaningless. But if you use non-religious tests, like whether the values help people live in productive harmony, then many religious rules (like, honor the sabbath) don't seem good. And the others, the ones that do seem good, are the sort that would have been selected in the absence of religion.

[truthseeker101]

[Replying to Deidre32]

Deidre32 says, I'm an atheist but also a former Christian.
Instead if asking Christians to show me evidence of god's existence (which there is no objective proof; the Bible isn't proof of anything)

Deidre32, thank you for your question. There actually is plenty of evidence for the existence of God. Romans chapter 1 says, “The heavens (universe) declares the glory of God.� Have you ever felt wonder at looking at a beautiful sunset or an inspiring mountainous landscape? Where does this wonder come from? It comes from being created in His image. We are a special creation that can appreciate the work of God’s hand.

The Bible is another example of evidence of God’s existence. If we take the time to compare the Bible to other books written and/or compiled throughout history, there is nothing like it. Written over a period of about 1500 years by about 40 different authors with different backgrounds, it has endured over the years and has been the number 1 best seller every year – probably since the printing press. (We haven’t even begun to talk about fulfilled prophecies.)

Another example is the nation Israel. How many other ancient nations have been conquered, dispersed, and pretty much annihilated, then reappeared with the same name, religion, and culture? (You might want to look into the miraculous victory of the 6 day war too.)


why not tell me and other atheists, why is believing relevant? Why should anyone care if a god exists?

There tends to be a misunderstanding when the Bible talks about “believing� in God. It’s not believing like when you’re a kid and told about Santa and the Tooth fairy. The word “believing� in the Bible actually means more like trusting or committing yourself to God. It’s an experiential and relational word.

God’s desire in creating humans in His image was to create a being that would have the ability to experience His love and possess the freewill choice to love Him back. Because sin (missing the mark) entered the world, we are born separated from Him. God sent His Son Jesus Christ into the world so that anyone who would believe (trust/commit) in/to Him, would then be ushered into the family of God by God Himself.

If a god exists, why does he/it need my buy in?

God does not “need� our buy in, He strongly desires our buy in because He loves us.

Why is believing in a god ...necessary to living a good and productive life? (It's not but I'm interested in learning from Christians here, why they feel otherwise)

When someone puts their trust and faith in Jesus Christ, that person begins a wonderful and dynamic life with God Himself. God comes into their life and changes that person to be more like Him. Because God is righteous, we then desire to be righteous like Him. For a Christian, this is where growth and maturity become extremely important. If a Christian does not take the time to learn how to grow in their relationship with God, that person can become deceived and disillusioned by the things in this world and in their personal circumstances.

For a Christian, there is a problem in becoming religious in their relationship with God. If you search the Scriptures, you will find that the only type of person that Jesus ever became angry with was the self-righteous, religious person.

Thank you for letting me share.

[Elijah John]

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What makes that God superior to (better than) competing gods?

Most competing gods, in the time of the Bible writers were violent and orgiastic. Bloodthisrsty Pagan fertility deities. And while the ancient Hebrews were emerging from that enviroment, they were evolving BEYOND that background and renounced a lot of their barbaric practices. Not all, and not all at once,

Granted, the account of Bible writers reflected their own biases and sometime tendencies toward violence. But many of the attributes they attributed to, or percieved in YHVH were quite advance for the time.

Perhaps the Hebrew God was visualized as having (or was given) characteristics at least somewhat improved over preceding "gods" two or three thousand years ago, but is still portrayed as jealous, vengeful, violent, warlike, genocidal, etc.

Is that the same God that is worshiped by Jews, Christians and Muslims today?

Other gods, Pagan Gods were more like projections of ourselves, with offspring and familly, brothers, sisters, parents and whole pantheons.

Do such projections somehow make those "gods" inferior or less worthy of worship?

Many human characteristics (including a son) are also projected onto the bible God. Does the same criticism apply?

The difference is that the Hebrew God has redeeming qualities, (like the Bible itself) and I believe the negative stuff is a reflection of the biases and failings of the writers not accurately depicting God. They got better though, as time went on, again with the progression and help of the prophets, including Jesus.

I DO criticize Trinitarianism, which I consider a theological model which works for some, but not for me. I do not believe it is reality. The way I see it is that Trinitarianism is a form of polytheism, (ETHICAL polytheism, but still polytheism) I do not consider it Monotheism, as it is claimed. And I do not believe that Jesus taught Trinitarianism.