Let's cut to the chase: did the resurrection happen?

[Haven]

Recently, there have been a lot of threads on topics related to the resurrection of Jesus (empty tomb, supernaturalism vs. naturalism, historical records, and so on). I think it may be helpful to discuss the big picture: did the resurrection of Jesus happen or not? This thread is the place to discuss it: offer any argument for or against the resurrection. Hopefully this will be a good discussion.

Debate question: Was Jesus resurrected from the dead?

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Thread rules:
1) Offer evidence or logical argument. Simply providing Bible quotes isn't sufficient.
2) Faith, while valid on a personal level, isn't evidence for a claim. Provide empirical evidence from history, textual criticism, physics, and so on, not simply statements of faith.
3) Be kind to each other. All of us, regardless of our religious position, are conscious beings deserving of respect and civility.

[DefenderofTruth]

You say "Strong evidence the Christianity is true" would convert you.. But you literally took the evidence presented and basically made it out to be a lie.

You presented claims, I refuted them. There was no strong evidence in what you posted.

Like that of Paul's conversion, you basically said it was either a lie and he converted for power in the church but said his story was a hallucination...

I said either it was an invention ("lie" is such a loaded term) or he hallucinated. Two thousand years later I can't pretend to know which one it was, only that both are plausible explanations for his conversion.

If you had a vision of Christ would that be "strong evidence" that you are looking for or would you make it out to be a hallucination and discredit it on those terms?

I'd take it as strong evidence that I need to see a local mental health professional.

What kind of evidence would you accept? You took what we had and claimed it is either a lie or a "hallucination" (which discredits the "vision"). Taking any alternative then what we literally know about it, and you even say you wouldn't even trust your own perceptions if you had a vision of Christ.

Basically when you say "strong evidence would convince me", what you mean to say is "no evidence would convince me", not even your own perception would you trust if they made it known to you that Jesus Christ is of truth. You wouldn't even trust your own perceptions is what you are saying..

[Zzyzx]

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If you had a vision of Christ would that be "strong evidence" that you are looking for or would you make it out to be a hallucination and discredit it on those terms?

If I had a "vision" or delusion or hallucination of any kind I would immediately contact the VA for an appointment with a psychiatrist. No such thing has ever happened in my seventy-five years and I don't intend to start now.

My mind does not play tricks on me. I do not "see" things or hear "voices" and do not put any stock in stories of such things being anything more than overworked imagination. Perhaps that means I am not a good candidate for religion.

I have, however, met people who claimed they were Christ or Jesus or his direct representative. They were "nuttier than a fruitcake" and are hopefully medicated or institutionalized now. Milder cases may be functional in society.

[DefenderofTruth]

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If you had a vision of Christ would that be "strong evidence" that you are looking for or would you make it out to be a hallucination and discredit it on those terms?

If I had a "vision" or delusion or hallucination of any kind I would immediately contact the VA for an appointment with a psychiatrist. No such thing has ever happened in my seventy-five years and I don't intend to start now.

My mind does not play tricks on me. I do not "see" things or hear "voices" and do not put any stock in stories of such things being anything more than overworked imagination. Perhaps that means I am not a good candidate for religion.

I have, however, met people who claimed they were Christ or Jesus or his direct representative. They were "nuttier than a fruitcake" and are hopefully medicated or institutionalized now. Milder cases may be functional in society.

Ya even Newton thought he was Christ by the end of his life, but that doesn't say anything about your personal relationship with a Holy God, that says you met some nuts.


The fact that you guys wouldn't even accept a "vision" from a Holy God says a lot. People claim to want "extraordinary evidence for extraordinary events" which is what a vision from God would be, but you guys aren't even accepting that.

[Haven]

People have "visions" of God all the time. Most of them have schizophrenia or some other form of psychosis, and the "visions" are hallucinations. These are often accompanied by delusions of being some holy figure, saint, or prophet. These are actual symptoms of mental illness that have been experienced by thousands of people. If someone starts exhibiting these symptoms, what is the best course of action? Should we treat them for psychosis or believe that they've really met God?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 2980,d.cGU

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_delusion

[DefenderofTruth]

You guys wouldn't even trust your own perceptions if they make it clear to you that Christ is of truth. Thats what you are saying.

You know, the irrational rejection of the message of Christ only shows truth to its message. You are one of God's best advocates and you don't even know it.

[DefenderofTruth]

People have "visions" of God all the time. Most of them have schizophrenia or some other form of psychosis, and the "visions" are hallucinations. These are often accompanied by delusions of being some holy figure, saint, or prophet. These are actual symptoms of mental illness that have been experienced by thousands of people. If someone starts exhibiting these symptoms, what is the best course of action? Should we treat them for psychosis or believe that they've really met God?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 2980,d.cGU

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_delusion

When people say they want extraordinary evidence for God, what does that even mean to you?

[Haven]

You guys wouldn't even trust your own perceptions if they make it clear to you that Christ is of truth. Thats what you are saying.

I would not trust my own perceptions if I started hearing "voices" or seeing "visions." Those are classic symptoms of psychosis. Our perceptions can be mistaken: hallucinations, delusions, and illusions can occur.

Now, if the Christian god were to appear in Times Square in front of thousands, give a clear, scientifically accurate message, and be recorded on video equipment, or spell out a message in the stars, or do anything else unambiguously obvious . . . maybe then I'd have to reevaluate my belief system.

[DefenderofTruth]

You guys wouldn't even trust your own perceptions if they make it clear to you that Christ is of truth. Thats what you are saying.

I would not trust my own perceptions if I started hearing "voices" or seeing "visions." Those are classic symptoms of psychosis. Our perceptions can be mistaken: hallucinations, delusions, and illusions can occur.

Now, if the Christian god were to appear in Times Square in front of thousands, give a clear, scientifically accurate message, and be recorded on video equipment, or spell out a message in the stars, or do anything else unambiguously obvious . . . maybe then I'd have to reevaluate my belief system.

rofl... so any "supernatural event" other then a personal vision, thats what you are saying?

Your list is ridiculous...

f the Christian god were to appear in Times Square in front of thousands, give a clear, scientifically accurate message, and be recorded on video equipment .... lol, that ludicrous...

[DanieltheDragon]

You guys wouldn't even trust your own perceptions if they make it clear to you that Christ is of truth. Thats what you are saying.

I would not trust my own perceptions if I started hearing "voices" or seeing "visions." Those are classic symptoms of psychosis. Our perceptions can be mistaken: hallucinations, delusions, and illusions can occur.

Now, if the Christian god were to appear in Times Square in front of thousands, give a clear, scientifically accurate message, and be recorded on video equipment, or spell out a message in the stars, or do anything else unambiguously obvious . . . maybe then I'd have to reevaluate my belief system.

rofl... so any "supernatural event" other then a personal vision, thats what you are saying?

Your list is ridiculous...

f the Christian god were to appear in Times Square in front of thousands, give a clear, scientifically accurate message, and be recorded on video equipment lol, that ludicrous...

I think there could be a variety of ways to confirm Christianity without the need for visions. See this thread:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=27073

It was set up in such a way that God being really would be the most likely conclusion if the requirements were met. It did not need a vision or extraordinary evidence. It simply required a post at a specific point in time that was enclosed with one of the moderators.

I think one could easily setup an expirements where the most likely conclusion would be a god with X traits. Where X is any number of traits you assign to a specific god. In fact there is one such example in the bible see 1kings 18.

[DefenderofTruth]

The debate is about personal visions... From the looks of it you guys would accept supernatural evidence unless it is a personal vision... but lets be honest, that is only because you discredit Paul's testimony on those grounds.