The Flood Myth - The Greatest Evil

[Danmark]

Assuming the myth of the flood as recorded in Genesis is accurate history, it is the greatest single evil act recorded in the history of man. It also is evidence the alleged god who perpetrated this evil makes mistakes, contradicts himself, and is capricious.
Consider that shortly after pronouncing all of his creation "good" he repents and calls the whole thing evil and decides to destroy all of it; man and all the other animals [except, presumably, marine life]. Then he changes his mind again and decides He'll just wipe out everything and everyone except a single family to represent each species.

Why he saved the death stalker scorpion, mosquitoes, the box jellyfish, the black widow spider, the poison dart frog, blue ring octopus, and Clostridium Botulinum is beyond me, except that it puts the lie to the idea he was trying to get rid of evil.

It's obvious the story of the flood is pure mythology, but even then, what is its purpose? To show man how evil and corrupt he'd become? The God of this myth certainly does not set a good example.

[bluethread]

How can any critical thinking person of modern times think this is anything more than a mythical story than to accept such nonsense from ancient prescientific superstitious humans........

Okay okay.........since Christ refers to the flood as an actual even Christians have to sallow this hook line and sinker because if Christ is wrong............well their whole world view falls apart............

WTF again.........

Since this not the S&R forum, I'm not sure it is necessary to provide a scientific explanation of the flood. That said, Yeshua's reference does not require a scientific explanation either. He is making a point using a shared social prospective. Whether the flood actually happened or not, it's like "hands up, don't shoot". To the people in the victim culture, it doesn't matter that never happened, it is useful in making the point to others in that culture.

[ttruscott]

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I'd call the wanton destruction of every living thing on Earth 'evil.'

So would I and that is why I believe the flood was an act of execution against criminals for egregious violence. Not wanton, but a righteous judgment as written.

OK. Let's accept for the sake of argument that every human being at the time, babes included, were violent criminals. Were the other animals violent criminals? The giraffe? The Koala bear? The Giant Panda? Was Zeb's faithful dog Nimrod corrupt? Drowning kittens? Is that this God's idea of a good time and "righteous judgment?"

First hint:
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. I understand that the word "more" is only implied, not written, but the context would seem to demand this historical interpretation of the verse.

So, the animals are less crafty than the serpent? Crafty is the word used to describe the serpent's evil so this implies that the animals are only less evil than he is, that is, evil in nature but not so tricky theologically, perhaps.

Next:
Gen 3:14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, Because you have done this,
Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals!

Again, above is only implied but is the only implication of the context that makes sense. How can the wild animals be cursed along with the serpent (though with a lesser sentence) if they are not guilty of evil?

And to finish:
Gen 6:5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created"and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground"for I regret that I have made them.

ONLY IF the animals were indeed sinful in the same way the humans were wicked would this judgement include them. Therefore I do suspect that the animals, or at least the animals of that time, were sinful. I do not care that this is foolish to scientific materialism but as long as it does not contradict any of the spiritual truths I have learned I am content to live with this anomaly until I get understanding.

Yet God decided to spare Ham, who is soon to laugh at his father lying drunk and naked, and Noah, the old drunk. This is a very interesting God. He drowns kittens, but saves old drunks and mockers.

You seem to think that the elect of GOD are not sinners on earth, yet all of Christianity is based upon the doctrine that all humans are sinners though we can be saved from that state. Whether you are condemned or not is not based upon your being a sinner or not because all are sinners so salvation is based upon whether we sinners have accepted HIS offer of salvation by our free will or not.

[bluethread]

Either we have to assume everyone, including infants and children were somehow 'evil', or Yahweh appears unreasonably cruel. What if he just is? There's certainly plenty MORE evidence for that, from a human point of view.

This is a much better way of putting it, as you say, from a human point of view. It doesn't bother me that Humanist philosophy finds Adonai cruel. However, this whole "evil" thing is so mired in the modern English usage of that term, it becomes practically worthless when referring to anything in the Scriptures.

[ttruscott]

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What happens above 15,000 ft........Alps peaks (you don't have much air and if you go higher need a a pressurized cabin to go up to around 36,000 ft.....the Mt. Everest peak......

Its so frickin cold outside and the air is so thin you can't breath and would freeze to death..................yet this boat is carrying all these creatures and is floating on top of water line that covers the tops of those peaks worldwide??

...

Ummm, until you prove that any mountain was this high at the time of the flood and were not pushed up to these heights afterword, perhaps by the release of the water from within the mantle which would cause a lot of land mass instability, your point holds no sway.

[pshun2404]

We must discern what He means here by the word kill in the commandment as opposed to what is meant in other places the translators also called kill! There are three different words used for killing in the Old Testament. So in order to uncover the circumstances or events under which killing is sometimes allowed, one must take into account the context of the act and which word is being used.

The Hebrew word rasah or rashah, as it is used here in the 6th Commandment refers most specifically to premeditated murder without just cause. However, it can also be used in the sense of manslaughter, as when one kills by mistake, or without intent, like in the case of Numbers 25:11; Deuteronomy 4:42, 19:4, Joshua 20:3-5, and elsewhere! Thus in Hebrew the specific meaning of this word must always be determined by its context. We must always see it in relation to the surrounding statements. In the commandments it is absolute and the law is conditional

Sin is a transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4) and there are actually 613 commandmentsthe soul that sins it must die is called the curse of the law but actually goes all the way back to the garden and what is really being said is that sin brings forth sickness and death (spiritual death).

Next, we have the word hemit, which carries no sense of guilt or iniquity and is used in the case of righteous capital punishment, or when the killing is the result of an attack from a wild beast, and so on! The root of this word is related to the word emet or truth. We see this usage in Leviticus 20:4; Numbers 35:19-21; Deuteronomy 13:10 (your passage) and Deuteronomy 17:7!

Finally, when God orders the execution or destruction of an individual or group (like when He commands Joshua at the five cities of Canaan), the word haraq is used (See Genesis 20:4; Exodus 4:23, etc.). This form of killing is used specifically in the prevention of foreseen evils beyond our comprehension. By eliminating these people, God is actually sparing millions of people the pain, disease, suffering, and death that they would have caused. It would be used for example in eliminating an Adolph Hitler. There is absolutely nothing evil in this, in fact it is very good. Therefore, this form of killing is always just, whether or not we finite humans can see the full implications of His doing it.

The question has also been asked, Why couldnt God just make the devils repent and then save them rather than condemn them all to eternal death in Gehenna? I mean, didnt Jesus die for all sins? Cant He save them as well?

And the answer is, Yes, He could, but He wont, because these are free-will beings who not only have made this choice, but God has foreseen that, even if given many opportunities, they still will not repent.
Therefore, regarding this type of death that they will suffer (eternal separation from the presence of God), and believing they know what this means, they still choose faithless rebellion, and so God is entirely justified, and no person who truly understands this can feel sorry for the malevolent beings of this universe who are being so judged. American mass murder (though he never actually did the killing) is such a person. He knows God is real and hates God, rejects God and mocks God. Clearly there are many other human spirits like this! In the end actual hell is merely the place God has provided where He is not and is in fact is giving them their way. They will be their own lord (Genesis 3:5) forever without God or anything He would have provided (light, fellowship, cooling breezes, order, touch, etc.)
Now then, according to the Scriptures a murderer is almost always a person who sits and premeditates the killing of another human being for some ultimate selfish reason such as hatred, jealousy, political power, revenge, profit, control, etc.! Originally mankind was made in Gods image, so when we take a life and shed anothers blood, we offend God. We are also killing all that persons potential future offspring. Mankind was also meant to be a progenitor of others and so when we murder, we eliminate the life of all those who were meant to have a life because of us who are not yet born. Did you know in Genesis the Lord tells Cain, your brothers bloods call out from the ground and not your brothers blood? Yes in Hebrew the word is a plural.

You see, unlike the abortion for convenience mentality so prevalent in America and Europe today, according to the Bible, God sees all these killed unborn beings as humans, and as persons, and therefore, considers the premeditated taking of their lives to be murder. God takes humanitys mutual preservation of each individuals life very seriously. So seriously in fact, as well as being aware of the humans natural tendency for revenge and errors in judgment, we see that in the time of the Covenant of the Law with Israel, He also set up places of refuge (entire cities), and commanded each case be judged with fair trials obtaining witnesses (two or more that must be in agreement), but gave them a law the stemmed from the time of Noah which said, If a man sheds the blood of another, by man his blood shall be shed, and then finally recommends forgiveness for most sin and provides a system of blood sacrifice for sin, culminating when He gave His only begotten Son (Isaiah 53/John 3). The provision of animal sacrifice was of course only temporary looking forward to this once for all sacrifice of His Son (Hebrews 10:10), as an atonement that satisfies the requirement of life for life (Genesis 9:6/Isaiah 53). For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Therefore, this intent of God to treat each individual life as sacred is so serious that, as eluded to above, that Jesus the Messiah says that even anger and insult are violations of the 6th Commandment.

So why did our Lord do all this for us? Because of the potential danger that lurks within each of us when we act out as our own lord (Genesis 3:5) which is the true fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, by which we decide to disregard Gods word and decide good and evil for ourselves. Sad as it seems to admit it, the source of these heinous and dangerous motivations is a genuine potential that lies within each of us (Matthew 15:19)! Who can deny it? Only the self-deluded!

Now to demonstrate a sense of justifiable killing that is not murder, that is not necessarily morally wrong, such as the basis for the so-called Just War concept, or Gods command for certain people to go wipe out a family line, or an entire city, or even when considering the right to protect ones children from victimization at the hands of some maniac, I will use an analogy that arises from within the survival instinct of our own bodies. The principle I am about to reveal is basic to all living creatures and though analogous is well grounded in established biological truth.

Imagine in the human body, each cell as an individual life form, which actually it is. They each likewise function as part of a specific local community (the heart, the lungs, the blood stream, etc.,). Different cells, and groups of cells, display differences in structure, appearance, life-span, function, etc., just like different humans and groups of humans! Each cell in relation to the other cells, and as a member of their particular cellular community, knowingly or unknowingly works as an intricate part of a whole which is greater than the sum of its parts. The human host, of which it is but a tiny almost insignificant part, is as the Lord is to us, in relation to the members of His body. The individual cells instinctual purpose, like our own, is to work to maintain and protect its self life, as well as the goals of its community life.

One of the ways they assure the survival of their type is through self-replication or offspring. Their higher purpose is actually to achieve our will and our good purpose though they are most probably totally unaware, or only vaguely, that we, as their human host, even exists. They understand little if anything about us, and our ways are higher than their ways, our thoughts are higher than their thoughts, if indeed it can be said that they even have any. They go about more or less doing the right thing in relation to one another unaware of the part they are playing in working within our overall purpose and will. Beyond their circumstantial perceptions they are working and interacting to optimize our quality of life and helping to fulfill our long term plans.

Now then, each individual cell is created in our image. They contain the image of their host within each of them (called DNA). They probably can sense an order and function interactively to enhance their mutually dependable existence. The span of their existence may be miniscule in relation to their human host, but to them it is a lifetime.

Sad as this truth is, every once in a while, a cell or some group of cells, decides they are going to do their own thing. Theyre going to be their own lord if you will. They seemingly become self-willed and rebellious toward the established order. They begin to gain new converts so to speak, in great numbers, and nothing is going to stop them from their plan to take over. We call this actual biological phenomena is what we call Cancer! These terrorist or barbarous cells literally go into attack mode and start sapping the life out of the surrounding cells, killing as many as necessary in pursuit of their self-willed agenda. At first the effect of their violence upon their community of cells is slight and almost unnoticeable, causing some alarm, discomfort, and intermittent disturbance here and there. Regulatory norms are enforced by the greater community, and often these violent murderous outbreaks are remedied without bringing much attention or alarm to the neighboring cellular communities. However, on occasion these cells reject these corrective measures and rebel even further extending their influence outward, and begin to influence their surroundings in such a way that the immune system is alerted, and the local community has to call in specialists to eliminate these criminal cells in an attempt to protect the near by individuals, and the society at large. These are usually in the form of anti-bodies and white blood cells, that specialize in response to the types of violent rebellion these particular cellular individuals impose. Why try to eliminate them? Because of the inevitable threat they cause to individuals and to the greater society. The literally bring a sort of chaos into the order of things destroying the work being done there. If left on their own without being stopped they will continue to maliciously destroy and entirely take over. The forces alerted to remedy the problem will stop at nothing to prevent more senseless murder and mayhem and if necessary will even kill them. They even try surrounding them and trapping them as a first attempt by encapsulating them in a membrane or prison if you will.

If they get too powerful, or for some non-sensible reason are released, or break out of their captivity, or get away with their self-lordship too long, the cells lord, the human host, begins to take notice and likewise goes on alert. It likewise then takes any steps necessary to overcome or even kill the Cancer before it gets too powerful. It will irradiate, cut out, laser roast, or even chop off a limb in order to preserve the greater good and sometimes the life of the whole. Often times a number of good healthy citizen cells are called on to make the sacrifice of self for the greater good. Sometimes just the act of chasing down these devils and getting at them causes the sacrifice of good, innocent, healthy, cellular individuals. As tragic as this may seem it is the necessary price that must be paid to protect and save the most lives in the community.

So it is with God! Occasionally, God sees the development of a human cancer growing stronger and stronger. The appropriate members of the human community at large are being intimidated, persuaded, abused, and even eliminated. Sometimes He sees that resistance attempts have been, or will continue to be futile, and so He must step in and take action to save the many, to work the greater overall good, even though we may not fully comprehend the extent of this benefit at the time. When we have to go in and wipe out a cancer are we not grieved? There just are times when certain individuals or groups are determined to work their will against the wellbeing of others, or against the will and best interests of their Lord, and so He has to step in and fix the problem by getting rid of these human cancers, and by this He repairs the damage.

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 25 by pshun2404]

My, that was quite a sermon -- which sounds almost like the talk of a professional religionist (one who derives income or benefits from preaching). It might be more appropriate in Holy Huddle or Theology, Doctrine and Dogma sub-forums where "spreading the word" is acceptable.

You see, unlike the abortion for convenience mentality so prevalent in America and Europe today, according to the Bible, God sees all these killed unborn beings as humans, and as persons, and therefore, considers the premeditated taking of their lives to be murder.

It is downright amazing how many Apologists claim to know exactly what God thinks. It is even more amazing that they all seem to say different things. Is it possible that they are just spoofing or making up things to say that just happen to match what they personally want or think?

[Hamsaka]

Either we have to assume everyone, including infants and children were somehow 'evil', or Yahweh appears unreasonably cruel. What if he just is? There's certainly plenty MORE evidence for that, from a human point of view.

This is a much better way of putting it, as you say, from a human point of view. It doesn't bother me that Humanist philosophy finds Adonai cruel. However, this whole "evil" thing is so mired in the modern English usage of that term, it becomes practically worthless when referring to anything in the Scriptures.

I can see it being 'worthless' from a theistic point of view, but that is not the sole relevant point of view. I don't have belief in your god, but granting his existence, is it really 'worthless' to have my very human reaction to your god's ruthless, exacting and savage (sometimes) behavior? I think nontheists have relevant concerns, even when they have no belief, because of having to share the planet with believers of all sorts of religions.

I'm of the belief that the human point of view is the only available point of view, unless we include other sentient animals. "Humanist" is actually a great way to characterize my personal beliefs, or most of them on this subject.

In most cultures that developed a society, killing each other aside from self defense has been characterized as immoral, and the degree of immorality is such that one of our most vehement descriptors, 'evil', just FITS for describing a being that drowns the world, commands genocide, and all that stuff you're used to hearing from us.

This may be irrelevant in many ways to theists, but it is very alarming to nonbelievers. I think that alone gives the issue importance. I'm thinking your faith is not evangelical in any way, so this doesn't apply to you, but for the evangelicals among us, it's on them to provide some kind of explanation to those who ask or are seeking.

The 'evil' of the OT God is something I'd never heard characterized until recently, but it is quite 'widespread' as a hard question asked of believers.

It should be an honest admission that the biblical Yahweh does not act 'human' and from our human perspective, his behavior illustrates a jealous and angry god (his own words, I believe) who does what he wants to do for his own reasons. It is disingenuous to gloss over Yahweh's behavior, or explain it away like William Lane Craig does (badly), or try and get anyone above the age of 12 to buy that 'God's reasons are mysterious, it just looks bad to us because of our limited understanding'. Who would want to devote themselves to such a god?

Or is the question "who would dare NOT worship such a god"?

I remember having serious fears that God would and could refuse to fulfill his promises, for his own mysterious reasons that I could not possibly understand. His recorded 'behavior' in the Bible is not comforting at all.

So (after all that jabber) I disagree about the 'worthless' part because in my world, which is relevant, 'evil' behavior is real and problematic, whether or not we agree on who gets to decide the definition of evil as it applies to God.

[Zzyzx]

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Since this not the S&R forum, I'm not sure it is necessary to provide a scientific explanation of the flood.

In the C&A sub-forum evidence IS required to support challenged assertions / claims / stories presented as truthful, factual, accurate. The evidence need not be "scientific" but is expected to be more than opinion, conjecture, testimonial -- and Bible quotations are not acceptable as proof of truth.

If you can present credible evidence to support the flood tale feel welcome to do so.

That said, Yeshua's reference does not require a scientific explanation either. He is making a point using a shared social prospective. Whether the flood actually happened or not, it's like "hands up, don't shoot". To the people in the victim culture, it doesn't matter that never happened, it is useful in making the point to others in that culture.

Many or most Bible tales seem to fall into the category of "it doesn't matter that never happened, it is useful in making the point to others in that culture."

Unfortunately for Apologist debaters, not all who debate here are members of a religious culture -- so the tales do not apply.

[Danmark]

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I'd call the wanton destruction of every living thing on Earth 'evil.'

So would I and that is why I believe the flood was an act of execution against criminals for egregious violence. Not wanton, but a righteous judgment as written.

OK. Let's accept for the sake of argument that every human being at the time, babes included, were violent criminals. Were the other animals violent criminals? The giraffe? The Koala bear? The Giant Panda? Was Zeb's faithful dog Nimrod corrupt? Drowning kittens? Is that this God's idea of a good time and "righteous judgment?"

First hint:
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. I understand that the word "more" is only implied, not written, but the context would seem to demand this historical interpretation of the verse.

So, the animals are less crafty than the serpent? Crafty is the word used to describe the serpent's evil so this implies that the animals are only less evil than he is, that is, evil in nature but not so tricky theologically, perhaps.

Really? You are defending the drowning of kittens by using the Satan as a serpent metaphor? Those 'crafty' animals just have to be put down. Now God made them and they were good. But then they became 'crafty.' 'Kill! Kill! Kill!' says the Lord of Hosts, the creator of all these 'crafty' things he said were good. And how are they different today? Are they less crafty? More crafty? How about the people? Are they better now that they have been cleansed and killed by the deluge? No. Right off the bat they are getting drunk and naked. The children laugh at their parents. And we haven't got past the first generation. The Ark is still dripping wet and it's the same old stuff. All those people and kittens killed for nothing. Sorry God, but didn't you see this coming, you stupid old git? Too bad about that rainbow thing 'cause I'll bet you'd like to try it again.

[Hamsaka]

You see, unlike the abortion for convenience mentality so prevalent in America and Europe today, according to the Bible, God sees all these killed unborn beings as humans, and as persons, and therefore, considers the premeditated taking of their lives to be murder.

It is downright amazing how many Apologists claim to know exactly what God thinks. It is even more amazing that they all seem to say different things. Is it possible that they are just spoofing or making up things to say that just happen to match what they personally want or think?

Personally, I wonder if it is egotism and self-glorification. "Authority by association". A believer might rationalize that since they believe, and do a very good job at believing (among other activities of daily Christian life), that they are justified to speak for their God. In ancient Greece, such believers were given Zeus's lightning bolt, or turned into trees and flowers for their improper arrogance.