Does he have a valid point?

[Zzyzx]

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Bill Maher:
"When I hear from people that religion doesn't hurt anything, I say really? Well besides wars, the crusades, the inquisitions, 9-11, ethnic cleansing, the suppression of women, the suppression of homosexuals, fatwas, honor killings, suicide bombings, arranged marriages to minors, human sacrifice, burning witches, and systematic sex with children, I have a few little quibbles. And I forgot blowing up girl schools in Afghanistan."

Some say "The good outweighs the bad." If so what is that weighty good?

Many say "That is just the other religions." Is that true?

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 16 and 19 by Lion IRC]

Congratulations on giving readers a Christian perspective on the matters in question. Surely they will not see it as ducking-and-weaving, making excuses, twisting facts, distorting issues, blaming others, or weaseling. Surely they won't . . .


The mention of Atheists hiding in Catholic clergy and pedophiles hiding in Catholic clergy is a classic.


I wonder why Christianity is declining among educated, intelligent people and nations.

[Hamsaka]

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Bill Maher:
"When I hear from people that religion doesn't hurt anything, I say really? Well besides wars, the crusades, the inquisitions, 9-11, ethnic cleansing, the suppression of women, the suppression of homosexuals, fatwas, honor killings, suicide bombings, arranged marriages to minors, human sacrifice, burning witches, and systematic sex with children, I have a few little quibbles. And I forgot blowing up girl schools in Afghanistan."

Some say "The good outweighs the bad." If so what is that weighty good?

Many say "That is just the other religions." Is that true?

Create a strawman and then destroy it. Maybe the trick to pull it off is how hard one (in this case Bill) attacks the strawman?

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent. (from Wikipedia)

Holding up "religion doesn't hurt anything" against historic and multiply validated facts (the part in Maher's quote I bolded) where religion caused deaths in the thousands and condoned or overlooked sexual abuse of children by religious leaders -- is actually what religion(s) have done. That is not an opinion, or superficially 'similar', slightly different but WORSE position than what actually happened (a straw man). Maher told the truth as clear as the truth can be told. The discomfort it arouses in theists doesn't disqualify that those events happened and continue to happen.

[enviousintheeverafter]

Which religions was Maher talking about?
Surely he can't include Christianity?

Surely he can; and its safe to assume the parts about the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the suppression of women and homosexuals in particular were included with Christianity in mind. We could also probably add contributing to centuries of anti-Semitism and violence against Jews, opposing scientific/intellectual progress, being complicit in slavery, and plenty others to Christianity's own unique list. The good outweighs the bad? Yeah, right.

[H.sapiens]

[Replying to post 10 by Wootah]I'm guessing that you're against gravity too, after all lots of folks died falling down.

No one dies because of a car crash ... it's Newton's First Law that kills them, must be Newton's fault.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 8 by Zzyzx]

Then I am sure you will agree and won't distance yourself from the fact that the ideology of evolution killed the most people last century. Let alone the Holocaust of abortion taking place today.

There is no such thing as a ideology of evolution.. maybe you mean Social Darwinism.. but that has nothing to do with evolution.

"Biologists and historians have stated that this is a fallacy of appeal to nature, since the theory of natural selection is merely intended as a description of a biological phenomenon and should not be taken to imply that this phenomenon is good or that it ought to be used as a moral guide in human society. While most scholars recognize some historical links between the popularisation of Darwin's theory and forms of social Darwinism, they also maintain that social Darwinism is not a necessary consequence of the principles of biological evolution."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism

And although you slyly call abortion a "Holocaust".. putting the two words together doesn't mean that they are equivalent in any shape, manner or form.

The "Holocaust" was a genocide perpetrated to cleanse the Nazis from what they considered to be ethnic contamination. This has NOTHING to do with abortions.

It would appear that you don't agree with abortion, and that's why you call it such an evil name, in order to poison the well.

You seem to forget that women have rights to their bodies. Not surprising that a Christian would not be in favor of women's rights.. it's one of Maher's indictments about them.

[Zzyzx]

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Notice (as I trust readers do) that no attempt was made to address major points of my post. They are reproduced here for your convenience and consideration.

Are the Crusades a straw man? Inquisition? Witch trials? Pedophile priests? Cult leaders imprisoned for child brides / sex?

Are Fanatical Muslims a straw man?

It is quite legitimate to attack REAL issues.

Are those questions too difficult or embarrassing to answer honestly and openly? Should I refrain from asking difficult or embarrassing questions?

Maybe the trick to pull it off is how hard one (in this case Bill) attacks the strawman?

The hard trick is to defend or excuse those issues from real life -- or to distance one's chosen sect from dishonorable practices.

Then I am sure you will agree and won't distance yourself from the fact that the ideology of evolution killed the most people last century.

Admirable creative dance step.

Kindly demonstrate that "the ideology of evolution" exists outside the imagination of Theists and that it has "killed the most people last century".

I certainly do NOT distance myself from the concept of evolution (properly defined by geneticists as: "genetic change through generations").

When one understands what evolution means it is no longer the big bogyman envisioned by Apologists and preachers. It is not an ideology, but a scientific principle that is shown to be accurate whenever microorganisms become antibiotic resistant.

Let alone the Holocaust of abortion taking place today.

When one runs out of legitimate arguments they can always resort to railing against the Holocaust or abortion – which have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. It might be prudent to re-read the OP.

[Elijah John]

Which religions was Maher talking about?
Surely he can't include Christianity?
"Love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)

Of Bill Maher's list, these (at least) can be laid at the Christian's door: the crusades, the inquisitions, ethnic cleansing, the suppression of women, the suppression of homosexuals, arranged marriages to minors, burning witches, and systematic sex with children.

That is weak indeed. The first three are ancient history. Not sure how you think Christianity ever contributed to "ethnic cleansing". The supression of women...debatable, and cultural, not just Christian religious. But that is changing. Arranged marraige to minors? What?! Burning witches...valid charge but ancient and outdated.
Suppression of homosexuals? Debatable, but name me ONE church (besides the Westboro Baptist Church) that advocates persecution of homosexuals. Systematic sex w children???? The Christian religion NEVER taught that. Bad apples.

Mahar conflates and distorts.

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 27 by Elijah John]

The Crusades, Inquisition and Witch burning are hard to deny or excuse, aren't they?

Child brides: Google "Warren Jeffs" – imprisoned for life for exactly that. He is the uncle of a woman to whom I was marred for ten years (and who escaped the FLDS polygamous cult to avoid that fate).

Systematic sex with children: Pedophile priests seem to prefer young males. Some of the famous homophobic preachers were discovered to prefer adult males (and in some cases prostitutes of either gender).

Christian religions (at least some sects) DO teach such things or condone or cover up for them. Most of the denunciation of such acts has NOT been from within the churches but from outsiders and victims.

[AdHoc]

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Bill Maher:
"When I hear from people that religion doesn't hurt anything, I say really? Well besides wars, the crusades, the inquisitions, 9-11, ethnic cleansing, the suppression of women, the suppression of homosexuals, fatwas, honor killings, suicide bombings, arranged marriages to minors, human sacrifice, burning witches, and systematic sex with children, I have a few little quibbles. And I forgot blowing up girl schools in Afghanistan."

Some say "The good outweighs the bad." If so what is that weighty good?

Many say "That is just the other religions." Is that true?

I feel like there is something logically flawed in what Mr Maher is saying but I can't quite put my finger on what it is...

Basically he wants his listeners to come to the conclusion that we need to rid the earth of all religion because of all the evil things that religious people have done.

But wouldn't that be like saying, nuclear technology is bad? I mean if we didn't harness its power we wouldn't have nuclear weapons to defend ourselves or clean nuclear energy from plants like Chernobyl and Fukushima. The US would have no depleted uranium to coat their MI Abrams shells and no tactical nukes to safely destroy battlefield targets. I could go on and on...

Is uranium evil? No but some people do evil things and if we rid the universe of nuclear power we'd lose the sun too.

So we'll keep on going nuclear for now.

What about religion, is there any good reason to keep it? Should we rid the world of these religious lessons? do unto others as you would have them do unto you, love your neighbour as yourself, love your enemies, turn the other cheek, care for widows and orphans, care for the least of these, share your bread with the hungry.

I agree with Mr Maher that the deeds in his list are terrible and we should rid ourselves of that but do the teachings of Jesus Christ encourage a person to do those things? If we did away with Christ's teachings would those things be more or less likely to have happened?

[Lion IRC]

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[Replying to post 16 and 19 by Lion IRC]

Congratulations on giving readers a Christian perspective on the matters in question. Surely they will not see it as ducking-and-weaving, making excuses, twisting facts, distorting issues, blaming others, or weaseling. Surely they won't . . .

No I dont think they will. Facts are facts.
If you found something false in my post, please point it out.
Otherwise it seems you havent really got much of substance to say in rebuttal.
I certainly wasnt 'ducking' or 'weaving'. I was directly smashing it with a sledge hammer. You wont find me shirking or running away from that type of attack on the church.

...The mention of Atheists hiding in Catholic clergy and pedophiles hiding in Catholic clergy is a classic.

Glad you liked it.

I wonder why Christianity is declining among educated, intelligent people and nations.

I dont think it is.