Religion vs relationsip (with God)

[Elijah John]

From another thread (replying to Tam):

"I notice in may of your posts you are careful to make the distinction between "religion and faith" I read that as a distinction between "religion and relationship") to God or Christ)

Doesn't religion, (ideally) help one to RELATE to God, and in the case of Christianity to have a relationship with Christ?

I know Roman Catholicism emphasizes relationship with Christ through the Word (liturgy of the Word, readings etc.) and the liturgy of the Eucharist, (the body of Christ). And of course, prayers.

But in the final anyalysis, isn't relationship with God based on prayer, which of course, includes faith that God hears and answers?"

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Question for debate, what (if any) is the difference between religion and relationship (with God/Christ)?


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[tam]

I do not go to "church services".

So you are like the soldier in God's army who won't go to military training?

Christ trains me.

Or the student who won't go to school?

Christ teaches me.

Or the chef who refuses to go into the kitchen?

If I am the chef in this analogy, then the only kitchen (church?) I need to be in is my Lord's Church - made up of His Body, His Bride. Not a building of brick or wood (or whatever); not a house of "Christendom"; not a member of any organized religion.

I am the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ, of which I am a member. So I can neither go to or leave Church. One is a member of the Church that belongs to Christ... every day.

Sounds very much like a religious belief.

It is a truth of the faith given me. Organized religion is not going to teach that one does not need to belong to it, because then why would anyone join it, give it money, time, service, donations, korban... tax-free status, etc, etc?

The one thing from your list that I 'do' is what you call communion.

So you don't prayer regularly?

That was not on your list, and how or how often I may pray is between me and God. It is private.

Unless you have general question regarding prayer?

You don't read your bible regularly?

I do not, although that was not on your list either.

Those things are very much religious rituals, much like a Muslim turns and faces Mecca.

Well, Christianity and Islam are both religions.

I do so because my Lord said that we are to do this, or we have no part in Him and no life in us.

Yes, much like any religion you are expected to do things if you wish to please your God. Your God is a dictator just like all the others. I don't see how you can then claim it's not a religion.

What is the 'it' that you think I have said is not a religion?

I said Christ is not a religion. I said Christ did not institute a religion. (for the sake of some, I try to place the word organized in front of religion, so that it is more clear)

I do this daily (as the Israelites ate the manna every day, and Christ is the true bread from heaven; the daily bread we ask God to provide), but how often others do is between them and their Lord.

Much like a muslim may bow down each day at a certain time and pray towards Mecca. That's a religious ritual.

It is not a religious ritual. It is obedience to my Lord and what He has taught me to do.

I would not seek to set rules upon others, or infringe upon their freedom in Christ, or try to insert myself between them and Christ. That is what religion does.

And it's what Christianity does. [strike] It's what the bible does.[/strike] Sets rules upon others.

Yeah. Christianity is a religion. It does set rules upon others, get others to follow its doctrines, its rules, its traditions, etc, etc.

It is very organized with men at its head, divided among itself, gaining followers after itself, for its own profit.

"These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.



Taught not by God or by Christ, but by men.


Now, some might suggest that Christianity to them means faith in Christ. Fair enough. Unless they are including christendom in their definition: and any or all of the daughters in that kingdom: the RCC, the Southern Baptists, Eastern Orthodox, Pentecostal, LDS, WTS, Anglican, United, Lutheran, etc, etc. Then their meaning of Christianity must include organized religion.

(Oh, and since prayer is supposed to be done in private as my Lord has said, I don't know how one would know if others pray with eyes opened or closed)

Do you close your eyes? It's a very religious thing to do.

Closing your eyes is a religious thing to do?

Have you never seen others praying? Have you ever been in a public place where a prayer has been done? Perhaps you have your eyes closed and you don't look?

Of course I have. But since prayer is supposed to be done in private, those doing it out in public aren't really listening to Christ, are they? They're just following tradition and/or rules of men. (Unless they are just giving thanks to God. Christ gave thanks and glory to God out in public all the time.) But he went off and prayed in private, and taught that this is what we should do as well.

Also let's not forget that James refers to Christianity as a religion and never says anything about it being a relationship with God.

Jam 1:26 & 27 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

He does not mention Christianity at all.

I doubt he would as Christianity is more of a modern term. He probably never used it, but what he is describing is exactly what Jesus taught. Caring for others and keeping oneself from sin.

James referred to actions of worship that were acceptable. He did not say be part of a religion. Certainly there is no mention of organized religion there.

Insert the word worship in place of religion and you will have a better understanding of what is meant.

We are to be part OF Christ.

Not part of an organized religion, worshiping according to human rules. There is no organized sect that does not also insert rules and rituals and traditions that are from men; though they all keep some of what Christ taught also.

But Christ said that the kind of worshipers the Father wants are those who worship in spirit and in truth. NOT on this mountain (religion) or that mountain (religion).



The problem you are having with this is that you do not think that religion and faith are two separate things. They are combined for you because that is all you once knew.


I have an entirely different experience than that. No religion. No going to church; not following the doctrines and traditions and rules taught by religious leaders.

Just Christ, and faith in Him alone. I do know - now - brothers and sisters who also share the same faith in Christ alone. But I did not know even them for a long time. It was tempting to join a 'church' or religion for a while, so as not to be lonely; but I could not do that without compromising truth, and so being disloyal to my Lord and all that He had thus far taught me.

It is also the only place the word 'religion' is used, if I remember correctly. Perhaps one more place. It does not refer to an organized religion at all. I think the word meant piety or pious actions. I will have to look it up again.

If you are following Jesus's instructions and helping the poor and trying to remain free of sin, then you are practicing the religion that James is describing.

See above

I have said that I have faith, not religion.

You have admitted to conducting religious rituals like communion. Therefore you are religious.

You will believe as you wish, based at least in part on your own experience.

I cannot agree with you.

I do what my Lord says to do. Not what any religion or any "men" tell me to do.

Which is why you practice religious rites like communion and prayer. God expects them.

It is not a religious rite. It is something that my Lord said to do if we wish to remain in Him. (note 'in Him' does not equal in religion)


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Religion is very much a part of this world, and my Lord said to be no part of this world.

I see that you did start another thread on this matter, so I may take a walk over there.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy