Just how virtuous is faith really?

[OnceConvinced]

This thread is inspired by a question Divine Insight asked recently, questioning just why we should consider faith virtuous.

Theists talk of faith as if being faithful is some kind of great virtue. Something that is so crucial to our well being. Sure, the bible tells us this, but really why is faith so virtuous? Why is it so important to a god?

I especially ask this from a non-theist perspective, why should anyone see faith as virtuous? As something desirable?

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 13 by ttruscott]

From the perspective of a non-believer I can't see anything virtuous in the faith mentioned here.

You talk about God proving himself and nobody turning him down. God would know the heart of that person. He would know how sincere they were, so what is the problem?

But really, how is any of this virtuous?

And if this methodology does not seem acceptable I ask for the disgruntled to offer their own method of how HE can find all those who want to marry HIM from those who don't without coercing anyone's free will. Our GOD is not into rape and will only marry those who accept HIS proposal by their free will, uncoerced by HIS divinity or power.

Why would I want to do this at all? Why should it matter to me that God wants my vote or for me to marry him? Why should I care what his desires are? Why would I see it as virtuous for anyone to simply marry him or vote for him by faith?

Would you consider it virtuous for a woman to marry a man based on faith? Would you consider it virtuous just to vote for a candidate in an election based on faith? Wouldn't you want more assurances that what you are doing is right? All I see you demonstrating is gullibility. There is nothing virtuous about that.

Even if it is virtuous from God's perspective, what about ours?

This is how the belligerent question of the non-believer is answered. Faith is salvation!

This really is quite insulting. There was no belligerence behind my question. I was asking a legitimate question, one which you have not answered. All you have done is present a scenario which has no relevance to a non-believer.

[OnceConvinced]

Faith is a quality that when exercised, allows a Christian to demonstrate the driving force behind his or her belief.

I'm not seeing why that should be considered virtuous. I see people who believe in Big Foot exhibiting faith that it exits. Should we see that kind of faith as virtuous? What about those who have faith that the Lochness Monster exists? Should we be impressed by that faith? Consider it a virtue?

The verses you post show an example of actions. It's the actions that made it virtuous. Not the faith.

When a Christian has strong faith, he/she exercises that faith. It is demonstrated by their works - what they do. So they do what is right.

Then it's not the faith that is a virtue. It's the works, isn't it? As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Good intentions mean nothing if you don't have actions along with it.

The same thing would apply if I was praying God to help me with my problems. If I sit there and all that I do is pray and trust in God to deal with it, I wouldn't call that virtuous. However, if I got off my butt and took action... dealing with my problems myself, rather than waiting for God, I would see that as virtuous.

Since faith is from God, it is virtuous.

Just because it's from God doesn't make it virtuous. People commit all sorts of vile acts because of their faith in God.

It is an admirable quality and attribute, both to God, who loves what is righteous. And to Christian who love what is right.

You will note that my opening posts asks that you show how it is virtuous to an unbeliever. Why should we see it as virtuous? Another question... why should we see it as nothing more than just gullibility or stubbornness?

Those who do lot love righteousness, do not consider faith virtuous.

I love righteousness. I think it's a great thing. But I still consider faith to be nothing more than gullibility and stubbornness. I would respect someone who seeks out answers so that they KNOW rather than just believing or taking something on faith.

Faith leads people to believe all sorts of crazy nonsense. Just look at all those other religions out there. If you are saying faith is virtuous, then those terrorists who strap explosives to their chest in the name of Allah are virtuous.

So the more faith one has, the more virtuous, he/she will be.

Why is it then that Christians, who live by faith are no more virtuous than Atheists?

The moral fruit or works produce by those who demonstrate faith, is virtuous in God's eyes.

Then why is that those who have faith in Jesus/God show so little good fruit?

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 17 by Kenisaw]

If I may, I would disagree that you have no proof that your wife loves you. If she takes care of you, does things for you, agrees to spend the rest of her life with you, that is evidence of love.

You are correct that I have proof that my wife has loved me so far. However, my point was that I can only believe or have faith that she will continue to do so for the rest of her life.

I can certainly irritate the heck out of her, so I really do need some faith to believe she will continue to love me

From an outsider's perspective, is it any more virtuous for you to have faith that your wife will continue to love you, than it is to take the stance that "Ok, she loves me now, but there are no guarantees she will feel the same in 10 years time."

I would say it would be more virtuous to remain with someone even with some doubts about future feelings, than it would be for someone who remains faithful that their wife will continue to love them.

Likewise, when it comes to God. What is more virtuous? To remain obeying and worshiping God even though you have doubts about God or remain obeying and worshiping God because you have complete faith in him?

It would seem that the lesser the faith, the more virtuous you would be to remain on God's side. From there we may even be able to say it is more virtuous NOT to have faith, than to have faith. At least without faith we are more likely to be honest with ourselves, which surely has to be more virtuous than trying to kid ourselves or convince ourselves of something we don't actually believe.

[OnceConvinced]

It seems to me the question is being asked in a way as to imply "we all know that faith is NOT virtuous, so why would anyone be so unreasonable as to presume it is?"

Definitely not intended. I understand full well that there are many people who believe that faith is virtuous. I used to be one of those people myself.

Granted this may not have been the intended implication, but if it was as you say it is based on a false premise, ie that it can be established empirically that faith is NOT "virtuous".
[/i]

Here's a scenario for you:

Christian A: has great faith in God fully believes that God has told him to go to Turkey as a missionary. He has complete faith the God wants him there and that God will provide for him. With boldness he climbs on the plane and heads to Turkey full of confidence in God and his mission.

Christian B: has weak faith in God, but fully believes God wants him to go to Turkey as a missionary. He has serious doubts about it. He wonders whether God really will provide for him because God sometimes sends trials and tribulations. Sometimes God even allows missionaries to be killed while on their missions. Christian B has huge doubts and he also doubts that God is all he promises in the bible, however B decides to go anyway and have faith, even though it is shaky. With great anxiety and doubts he climbs on the plane and heads to Turkey, hoping that God will bless his mission.

Who is the most virtuous? Christian A or B

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 23 by OnceConvinced]

From an outsider's perspective, is it any more virtuous for you to have faith that your wife will continue to love you, than it is to take the stance that "Ok, she loves me now, but there are no guarantees she will feel the same in 10 years time."

Only if you consider hope and positive outlook to be virtuous. I'm not in anyway trying to prove that it is, just giving my opinion that it could be seen that way by some.

[JehovahsWitness]

It seems to me the question is being asked in a way as to imply "we all know that faith is NOT virtuous, so why would anyone be so unreasonable as to presume it is?"

Definitely not intended. I understand full well that there are many people who believe that faith is virtuous. I used to be one of those people myself.

Granted this may not have been the intended implication [...]
[/i]

Okay, fair enough. The bottom line only a God would be in a an position to decide who or what is vituous in the absolute.

[Elijah John]

This is how the belligerent question of the non-believer is answered.

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[Kenisaw]

[Replying to post 17 by Kenisaw]

If I may, I would disagree that you have no proof that your wife loves you. If she takes care of you, does things for you, agrees to spend the rest of her life with you, that is evidence of love.

You are correct that I have proof that my wife has loved me so far. However, my point was that I can only believe or have faith that she will continue to do so for the rest of her life.

Well we certainly can't predict the future when it comes to humans and their actions, I agree there. But even then I would not say there is zero predictive power available to you. If a person notice changes in their spouse that indicates a change in their spouses feelings, that would change their assumptions about what the future holds. Of course humans are also very good at ignoring and rationalizing away information that doesn't conform with what they want, but that's a whole other discussion...

I can certainly irritate the heck out of her, so I really do need some faith to believe she will continue to love me

Sounds like we both married up

Your point is well taken though. I do have some evidence of previous love so I can expect it to continue if I don't do anything egregious. I'm not basing my faith on no evidence, but I can't prove 100% she will love me 10 years from now.

Very true.

[Kenisaw]

It seems to me the question is being asked in a way as to imply "we all know that faith is NOT virtuous, so why would anyone be so unreasonable as to presume it is?"

Definitely not intended. I understand full well that there are many people who believe that faith is virtuous. I used to be one of those people myself.

Granted this may not have been the intended implication [...]
[/i]

Okay, fair enough. The bottom line only a God would be in a an position to decide who or what is vituous in the absolute.

Well, if that god creature has consistently acted in an absolute moralistic manner maybe, which no god in human history can be shown to have done...

[Clownboat]

This thread is inspired by a question Divine Insight asked recently, questioning just why we should consider faith virtuous.

Theists talk of faith as if being faithful is some kind of great virtue. Something that is so crucial to our well being. Sure, the bible tells us this, but really why is faith so virtuous? Why is it so important to a god?

I especially ask this from a non-theist perspective, why should anyone see faith as virtuous? As something desirable?

I don't see how faith could be considered a virtue.
Faith is needed in order to believe in religions and god concepts. Since all god concepts can't be true (they all can be false though), faith is needed for and leads to false religious beliefs.

Something that leads to false beliefs cannot be a virtue. Faith cannot be virtuous.

It would take faith to believe that the earth is flat and that there is a global conspiracy to hide this faith based 'fact'. Like how it takes faith to believe that there is a global conspiracy to accept evolution.