In order for humans to forgive we go through an emotional state and move past the slight.
In order for God to forgive he has to have a ritualistic blood sacrifice involving torture of a pure being to forgive even the slightest of offenses.
How can God be all powerful if he is restricted in his ability to forgive?
How can God be all merciful if there is a sacrifice restriction on his mercy?
Why does God have a lower capacity of forgiveness than humans?
God is not more merciful than most humans.
Moderator: Moderators
-
DanieltheDragon
- Savant
- Posts: 6224
- Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:37 pm
- Location: Charlotte
- Been thanked: 1 time
God is not more merciful than most humans.
Post #1Post 1: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:48 am Otseng has been banned
Otseng has been banned for having multiple accounts and impersonating a moderator.
Otseng has been banned for having multiple accounts and impersonating a moderator.
Re: God is not more merciful than most humans.
Post #21[Replying to post 20 by ttruscott]
What I said is that the penal-substitutionary theory of the atonement does in fact make God a house divided against himself. There is no doubt about that. It also makes God unjust in punishing someone innocent. To the extent that some churches adhere to this theory, they are in fact presenting a contradictory, unjust image of God.
Saying that God is loving but predestined probably the vast majority of the human race to be the reprobate and sent to hell is flatly contradictory. I believe God is essentially loving and merciful, and that means God does not coerce or threaten with terrible punishments. Because God is essentially loving, God loves everyone, not just the elect or Bible-believing Christians, etc.
What I said is that the penal-substitutionary theory of the atonement does in fact make God a house divided against himself. There is no doubt about that. It also makes God unjust in punishing someone innocent. To the extent that some churches adhere to this theory, they are in fact presenting a contradictory, unjust image of God.
Saying that God is loving but predestined probably the vast majority of the human race to be the reprobate and sent to hell is flatly contradictory. I believe God is essentially loving and merciful, and that means God does not coerce or threaten with terrible punishments. Because God is essentially loving, God loves everyone, not just the elect or Bible-believing Christians, etc.
-
Zzyzx
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 25106
- Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:38 pm
- Location: Bible Belt USA
- Has thanked: 47 times
- Been thanked: 84 times
Re: God is not more merciful than most humans.
Post #22.
[Replying to post 15 by hoghead1]
HH,
What a refreshing and straight-forward summation. Highlights that got my attention:
It may be odd that we both have some affinity for Unitarianism (though I have only rarely attended services due to travel distance).
Anyone interested in why Unitarianism might appeal can find information at www.UUA.org
Where other than religion is the 'teacher' or person in position of authority likely to 'dumb it down' to keep people from learning? Politics? Product promotion? In schooling it is common to present a simplified version of complex matters early in the process, with full expectation of deepening its depth with subsequent studies.
Does a progressive depth of teaching apply to churches in general? Or would many or perhaps most preachers tend to prefer (as they sometimes frankly admit) that parishioners NOT be given too much information?
Where do you see religion going from here?
[Replying to post 15 by hoghead1]
HH,
What a refreshing and straight-forward summation. Highlights that got my attention:
It may seem strange that you are I are 'on the same side' when it comes to battling 'dumbed down' versions of Christianity. However, an alliance between Modern Theist and Non-Theist occurs with some frequency in opposition to Fundamentalist / Literalist / Traditionalist (and often bigoted, exclusionary) views expressed adherents of such sects.hoghead1 wrote: He told me that he would never tell his congregation anything about this. He was afraid he'd lose his job if he said Moses didn't write the Pentateuch
I also heard that from a local minister, one who is fluent in Hebrew and holds with the Documentary Hypothesis
Nevertheless, some ministers are pressured to dumb down the intellectual side of faith.
we had a minister who had a Ph.D. in Christian ethics, plus a library of about 20,000 books. His sermons, I thought anyway, were great, with loads of references to church history, Luther, Calvin, you name it. Alas, many members, though not all, and mind you, this was a congregation of largely highly educated Westinghouse engineers and people, congregation took a dim view. They would childe him, asking if he was going to give a test next week or if they were supposed to take notes during sermons. He got bored, left, and took up a teaching position in a seminary.
In came the new minister, better liked, who once told me that he hadn't rad a book in theology in forty years.
It is very tough going. So many of the congregation just don't want to think any theological thoughts about anything, period.
It may be odd that we both have some affinity for Unitarianism (though I have only rarely attended services due to travel distance).
Anyone interested in why Unitarianism might appeal can find information at www.UUA.org
Where other than religion is the 'teacher' or person in position of authority likely to 'dumb it down' to keep people from learning? Politics? Product promotion? In schooling it is common to present a simplified version of complex matters early in the process, with full expectation of deepening its depth with subsequent studies.
Does a progressive depth of teaching apply to churches in general? Or would many or perhaps most preachers tend to prefer (as they sometimes frankly admit) that parishioners NOT be given too much information?
Where do you see religion going from here?
.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
-
Mike Boone
- Student
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:00 am
Re: God is not more merciful than most humans.
Post #23[Replying to post 2 by Wootah]
Wootah, if it is the God believed in by Christians that you are referring to, then I contend that the human condition, as found here on earth, provides definitive, as well as ample, evidence that your claim that such a God is "just and good", is false.
A couple years ago in reading about the various doctrines of the Christian religion I was somewhat stunned to learn of a belief that is generally held by most Christian denominations. And that doctrine simply states that we as humans do not suffer from illnesses or diseases because of our own personal sins, but rather, humans suffer from such afflictions due to the original sin that the first humans engaged in back in the Garden of Eden.
But Wootah, around the same time I learned of that Christian doctrine, I read in the newspaper about a local 4 year old child who had just died after suffering with a painful form of cancer. Such a sad reality provides strong proof that the Christian God, if he existed, could not be a just God if he allows a child (and those who love him) to suffer because of the sin that was committed by 2 people who lived thousands of years before the kid was even born. Furthermore, the child himself, was so young that he had not even reached what any of us would call the age of bearing responsibility.
Anyway Wootah, I'm very grateful that America's criminal justice system is not modeled after that absurd idea of punishing someone unjustly for the offenses of others, which that Christian doctrine states as being God's divine way of running things. Because if our system of justice emulated such a ridiculous approach, and research happened to unearth the fact that my great great grandfather poisoned his wife, a woman that folks had believed to have died of natural causes, then I might be shocked one day to have police arrest me so that I could end up being punished for a crime committed before I was born.
Well Wootah, so much for your claim that a Christian God would be a just one. The doctrine involving "the original sin of Adam and Eve" is so ridiculous that it should insult the intelligence of every person who actually uses his brain for thinking, rather than using it for merely believing.
Now let me explain, Wootah, why a God could not be good, either. If the Christian God actually were to exist, every day in this world he sees helpless little kids, for example, being abducted, tortured, and raped, while not lifting a finger to stop the horror, even for those kids who cry out in prayer for God to come to their aid.
Wootah, if one of your children, or any child, was being raped and tortured in the woods, and I came along and discovered the horror as it was taking place, you would expect that if I had any decency as a person I would grab or strike that rapist, and save the child from further harm. And personally, I know that I would gladly risk my own life to help a child in such a situation. Really, any decent human being would not hesitate in quickly taking action to try to end such a horror.
But sadly Wootah, you seem to think that a God can be good if his own behavior doesn't even rise to the level exhibited by any decent human being. And it is so ridiculous that Christians can actually believe that their God "has a special love for the little children". Because, obviously a God would not have to risk his own life to save a child who's being tortured or abused. And if a God, had in fact, been the child's creator, then he certainly isn't being any decent kind of a father by refusing to help that child when there is no one else around that could possibly provide some aid.
Yes Wootah, it's simply stunning for rational, logical people, like yours truly, to hear Christians, or adherents to any religion, give glowing praise to a God, who if real, would be little better than the types of creeps that he would be constantly allowing to go on hurting and torturing the helpless. Such a God would be committing a terrible sin of his own every time he simply watches, instead of extending the kind of loving aid to the helpless, that a genuinely heavenly father actually would. It's sure no wonder that 21st century America is witness to so many people now rejecting such absurd ideas as there actually being a genuinely good God who kindly watches over us.
Personally, I'm very thankful that a huge, landmark, PEW Research Center study of American religious attitudes, that was released last spring, showed that Americans in all the regions of our nation, are gradually abandoning foolishness like the Christian religion, at an ever increasing rate. And this development is not only occurring among the young, but this trend is accelerating among the people of all age groups. I constantly meet people like the nice man and woman who handle our house and car insurance, where some long discussions have brought out the fact that they come from quite religious families, but both came to separate decisions that the beliefs they were brought up with are merely superstitious and illogical nonsense that was invented by ignorant and fearful minds.
I'm so grateful that people are finally starting to learn how to use logic and their ability to employ critical thinking, so that they can carefully evaluate the validity (if any) of claims that are presented to them.
Wootah, if it is the God believed in by Christians that you are referring to, then I contend that the human condition, as found here on earth, provides definitive, as well as ample, evidence that your claim that such a God is "just and good", is false.
A couple years ago in reading about the various doctrines of the Christian religion I was somewhat stunned to learn of a belief that is generally held by most Christian denominations. And that doctrine simply states that we as humans do not suffer from illnesses or diseases because of our own personal sins, but rather, humans suffer from such afflictions due to the original sin that the first humans engaged in back in the Garden of Eden.
But Wootah, around the same time I learned of that Christian doctrine, I read in the newspaper about a local 4 year old child who had just died after suffering with a painful form of cancer. Such a sad reality provides strong proof that the Christian God, if he existed, could not be a just God if he allows a child (and those who love him) to suffer because of the sin that was committed by 2 people who lived thousands of years before the kid was even born. Furthermore, the child himself, was so young that he had not even reached what any of us would call the age of bearing responsibility.
Anyway Wootah, I'm very grateful that America's criminal justice system is not modeled after that absurd idea of punishing someone unjustly for the offenses of others, which that Christian doctrine states as being God's divine way of running things. Because if our system of justice emulated such a ridiculous approach, and research happened to unearth the fact that my great great grandfather poisoned his wife, a woman that folks had believed to have died of natural causes, then I might be shocked one day to have police arrest me so that I could end up being punished for a crime committed before I was born.
Well Wootah, so much for your claim that a Christian God would be a just one. The doctrine involving "the original sin of Adam and Eve" is so ridiculous that it should insult the intelligence of every person who actually uses his brain for thinking, rather than using it for merely believing.
Now let me explain, Wootah, why a God could not be good, either. If the Christian God actually were to exist, every day in this world he sees helpless little kids, for example, being abducted, tortured, and raped, while not lifting a finger to stop the horror, even for those kids who cry out in prayer for God to come to their aid.
Wootah, if one of your children, or any child, was being raped and tortured in the woods, and I came along and discovered the horror as it was taking place, you would expect that if I had any decency as a person I would grab or strike that rapist, and save the child from further harm. And personally, I know that I would gladly risk my own life to help a child in such a situation. Really, any decent human being would not hesitate in quickly taking action to try to end such a horror.
But sadly Wootah, you seem to think that a God can be good if his own behavior doesn't even rise to the level exhibited by any decent human being. And it is so ridiculous that Christians can actually believe that their God "has a special love for the little children". Because, obviously a God would not have to risk his own life to save a child who's being tortured or abused. And if a God, had in fact, been the child's creator, then he certainly isn't being any decent kind of a father by refusing to help that child when there is no one else around that could possibly provide some aid.
Yes Wootah, it's simply stunning for rational, logical people, like yours truly, to hear Christians, or adherents to any religion, give glowing praise to a God, who if real, would be little better than the types of creeps that he would be constantly allowing to go on hurting and torturing the helpless. Such a God would be committing a terrible sin of his own every time he simply watches, instead of extending the kind of loving aid to the helpless, that a genuinely heavenly father actually would. It's sure no wonder that 21st century America is witness to so many people now rejecting such absurd ideas as there actually being a genuinely good God who kindly watches over us.
Personally, I'm very thankful that a huge, landmark, PEW Research Center study of American religious attitudes, that was released last spring, showed that Americans in all the regions of our nation, are gradually abandoning foolishness like the Christian religion, at an ever increasing rate. And this development is not only occurring among the young, but this trend is accelerating among the people of all age groups. I constantly meet people like the nice man and woman who handle our house and car insurance, where some long discussions have brought out the fact that they come from quite religious families, but both came to separate decisions that the beliefs they were brought up with are merely superstitious and illogical nonsense that was invented by ignorant and fearful minds.
I'm so grateful that people are finally starting to learn how to use logic and their ability to employ critical thinking, so that they can carefully evaluate the validity (if any) of claims that are presented to them.
Re: God is not more merciful than most humans.
Post #24[Replying to post 22 by Zzyzx]
My affinity for the Unitarian church is based on the fact they are the ones in town with the most interest in theology discussion groups. And the Unitarian Church dos have affinities with Whitehead and also Hartshorne, who was a Unitarian. The church managed his funereal back in 2000, when he died, going on 104.
True, in teaching, you do have to "dumb it down" a bit, especially with introductory courses. And I certainly don't blame ministers for feeling the need to do so. After all, 20 minutes on Sunday mornings is not much time. Still, I feel that the level of material presented in many churches could be and should be upgraded. My home church was large urban Presbyterian church. What it did was to invite seminary professors to come and give Sunday-evening lectures, the Fireside Lectures, we called them. There were about 800 members in the church. About 30 or so would attend for a six-weeks series of lectures on a certain topic. Marjorie Suchocki, one of my process mentors, now dean at Claremont, did a series on process, which was quite good. That's the kind of thing I like to see churches doing.
The future of religion? Great question. I have to think about that one. I hesitate in making future predictions about anything.
My affinity for the Unitarian church is based on the fact they are the ones in town with the most interest in theology discussion groups. And the Unitarian Church dos have affinities with Whitehead and also Hartshorne, who was a Unitarian. The church managed his funereal back in 2000, when he died, going on 104.
True, in teaching, you do have to "dumb it down" a bit, especially with introductory courses. And I certainly don't blame ministers for feeling the need to do so. After all, 20 minutes on Sunday mornings is not much time. Still, I feel that the level of material presented in many churches could be and should be upgraded. My home church was large urban Presbyterian church. What it did was to invite seminary professors to come and give Sunday-evening lectures, the Fireside Lectures, we called them. There were about 800 members in the church. About 30 or so would attend for a six-weeks series of lectures on a certain topic. Marjorie Suchocki, one of my process mentors, now dean at Claremont, did a series on process, which was quite good. That's the kind of thing I like to see churches doing.
The future of religion? Great question. I have to think about that one. I hesitate in making future predictions about anything.
-
ttruscott
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 11064
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
- Location: West Coast of Canada
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: God is not more merciful than most humans.
Post #25From my pov GOD has never coerced anyone with threats. If we know this, don't you think GOD knows this? Besides for us to be able to love HIM back we must have a free will because if HE created us with love for HIM we are coerced by our created nature without a choice...and true love cannot be forced. Nor can our marriage to HIM, the heavenly communion, ever happen since a forced marriage is rape, not a marriage.hoghead1 wrote: When you truly love others, you do not seek to coerce them by threats.
So this all means that HE cannot have coerced us by threats and whatever you think says HE does is wrongly decided, probably not taking into account we have no free will here on earth but decided our eternal fate pre-earth by our free will at that time before the creation of the physical universe.
If people really were coerced and threatened by hell, why are so many ignoring it?? Not a very good threat I guess. Actually not a threat at all since there is no proof of the place, there is no proof HE has power to send anyone there and no proof of anything. So why pretend there is?
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Re: God is not more merciful than most humans.
Post #26[Replying to post 25 by ttruscott]
I'm afraid I don't follow you at all. My position is that God does not coerce us by threats. So I definitely am not pretending that he does. I also firmly believe that we have genuine freedom of choice and therefore our fate is not pre-decided or predetermined by God.
I'm afraid I don't follow you at all. My position is that God does not coerce us by threats. So I definitely am not pretending that he does. I also firmly believe that we have genuine freedom of choice and therefore our fate is not pre-decided or predetermined by God.
-
ttruscott
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 11064
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
- Location: West Coast of Canada
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: God is not more merciful than most humans.
Post #27EX-cellent!!! WE have a shelf of stone to stand upon! But I cannot believe that with Jesus Himself saying we are enslaved by coercive sin that we have the free will here in this human life sohoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 25 by ttruscott]
I'm afraid I don't follow you at all. My position is that God does not coerce us by threats. So I definitely am not pretending that he does. I also firmly believe that we have genuine freedom of choice and therefore our fate is not pre-decided or predetermined by God.
I look for answers and find reasons to accept that we lived before earth in Sheol and had our free will and made our free will decisions there. Only sinners are born on earth is my way of saying all are born in sin.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Re: God is not more merciful than most humans.
Post #28[Replying to post 27 by ttruscott]
I'm afraid I don't agree with that at all. Saying that we decided all our decisions before we were born is just another form of predestination, which I reject.
I'm afraid I don't agree with that at all. Saying that we decided all our decisions before we were born is just another form of predestination, which I reject.
Re: God is not more merciful than most humans.
Post #29I have a certain sympathy with the congregation. I often take my mother to her church and grit my teeth against the anaphora and artificial rhetoric that echo through the learned priest's homilies, all solidly based on his years of anchorite study. He should cater for the needs of his flock rather than addressing himself intellectually to the ether as though his words were very incense.hoghead1 wrote:
In my home church, we had a minister who had a Ph.D. in Christian ethics, plus a library of about 20,000 books. His sermons, I thought anyway, were great, with loads of references to church history, Luther, Calvin, you name it. Alas, many members, though not all, and mind you, this was a congregation of largely highly educated Westinghouse engineers and people, congregation took a dim view. They would chide him, asking if he was going to give a test next week or if they were supposed to take notes during sermons.
I have had fine discussions with Jesuits but these are not to the taste of most folk. A sermon that relates the words of Jesus to present day problems is much, much better than one that compares Luke and Mark, calling on Calvin and Zwingli in the process. If we want the fillet steak of religious discourse, let us dine alone, or with the few who can afford it. The ability to break our theology into comprehensible Eucharist for the general taste is something a pastor should have. Few do.
Many of course chose to act like the Vicar of Bray and chant whatever is in vogue, regardless of truth or benefit.
-
ttruscott
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 11064
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
- Location: West Coast of Canada
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: God is not more merciful than most humans.
Post #30If you predestine your own fate by your free will - where is the problem? Most people condemn GOD for predestining us without our choice being involved.hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 27 by ttruscott]
I'm afraid I don't agree with that at all. Saying that we decided all our decisions before we were born is just another form of predestination, which I reject.
And what is the alternative aside from these two options, random chance?
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
