Shunning

[Elijah John]

Which groups and/or denominations practice "shunning"?

What other names mean the same thing? (disfellowship-ing etc.)

When can shunning be justified, if ever? Why?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 20 by tam]

Line ONE: Scriptural support was provided in the post (see link).
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 929#895929

Line TWO Full scriptural evidence has been provided in supporting links and in video (scriptures at 1"49) form for convenience.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 672#895672

JW

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 9 by JehovahsWitness]

The indescriminate condoning of all acts is not only unloving and unchristian but dangerous. For example, would it be kind and loving to allow a child abuser unsupervised time with a minor because that was in line with his wishes? Is is "neighbourly" to leave someone that habitually and in full knowledge of the consequences drove his vehicle while under the effects of alchohol? Would a murder be left ouside of prison because incarcerating him would cut him off from society and possibly his own children? All the above questions highlight a basic principle, the existence and exercise of just laws protect the individual members of a society and is fully justified even though they also encroach on the individual freedoms of those that break them "causing [the law breaker] a measure of pain".

Here is where your reasoning breaks down, JW. All the examples you gave up above, we are able to empirically show the harms that result.
We are able to show exactly what happens when a drunkard drives. We are able to show what happens when a child abuser has ready access to young flesh.
Now, with regards to JWs and shunning, what harms can you point to? Let's say that a family member of yours openly declares that they don't believe the prophecy that was said to have come true in 1914.
Can JWs show that Jesus really does exist, and that he really did begin to rule in 1914? Nope. All you have are a series of calculations with nothing physical (for lack of a better term) to show for it.
To compare, scientists didn't declare mesons to exist, their work done, simply because one scientist produced calculations.

[Thia]

... it is not one extreme or the other. "You must shun - cut someone off completely - or else you are indiscriminately condoning all acts."

QUESTION #4: Are sanctions imposed instead of needed sympathy and help?

Absolutely not; Church authorities are encouraged not to "stick uncharitably to the letter of the law" but to take into account circumstances and attitude when judging.

Do not judge, or you will be judged. For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. - Christ Jaheshua, from Matthew 7:1,2

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. - Christ, from Luke 6:37


Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? - Christ, from Luke 6:41

When they continued to question Him, He straightened up and said to them, "Whoever is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone at her." - Christ, from John 8:7


That should be enough, right? Christ said don't judge; Christ is the One God said to listen to?

So my Lord asks,

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?


**
And I hate to put Paul's words up when Christ's words should be enough. And it does not matter what Paul said, if Paul is not saying the same thing that Christ said (and taught, in word and in deed). Paul is NOT master, lord, king, teacher. Unfortunately, many people treat him as being so, and for some inexplicable reason, think that he could never have made a mistake.

So I put the following up just to show you (whoever is reading) that Paul DID learn, despite his error at the beginning when he told people TO judge; an error that has misled people who look to PAUL instead of to CHRIST, and an error that threw into disarray, the Corinthian congregation that knew there was a conflict between Paul's words and their Lord's words. Hence, he wrote a third letter to them (even though it is titled 2nd Corinthians), and told the people to embrace the brother he had formerly told them to shun.

In any case, here is Paul LATER, after learning the truth:


Therefore let us stop judging one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. - Paul, Romans 14:13




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

My spirit bears witness with this reply Tam thank you.
The JWs have adopted Paul's judgemental attitude to keep their rank and file in line. We know there were false scribes too, Christ warned us of them. We also know that if any inspired utterances do not comport with LOVE then they are tested and found to be in error.
There is NO love in shunning. At all.

Peace

Your servant and fellow slave of Christ
Thia x

[benchwarmer]

If he still does not listen then treat him as a gentile or tax collector.

What did Jesus mean by these words?

Well, apparently Jesus meant come join him:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

9 As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collectors booth. Follow me, he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.

And have dinner:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthews house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples.

Seems like the opposite of shunning no?

My personal opinion is that organizations 'shun' people such that those people can no longer 'poison' the minds of the rest of the flock. If people were free to question and 'rock the boat' then the entire house of cards is in danger of falling. Witness the multitude of denominations of Christianity that have arisen, all declaring they 'own' the truth.

It's all about protecting the organization, not about loving thy neighbor or seeking truth. The more restrictive the shunning, the more fear of being shunned keeps people in line. I think Christ would be sick to his stomach.

[JehovahsWitness]

If he still does not listen then treat him as a gentile or tax collector.

What did Jesus mean by these words?

Well, apparently Jesus meant come join him

So your interpretation is Jesus' words is that if the individual refuses to listen to the church the church should "join" the rebell?! The church should join the rebel in rebellion... against the church.

Does that sum up your interpretation of the scripture?


What did Jesus mean by "IF he does not listen"... ? Surely regular and friendly association should not be dependent on NOT listening to the church! Are you suggesting Christians should only be kind and have dinner with people "If the do not listen to the church"? What if they DO listen to the church, does that mean don't have dinner with them.


Are you really thinking this through?

[benchwarmer]

If he still does not listen then treat him as a gentile or tax collector.

What did Jesus mean by these words?

Well, apparently Jesus meant come join him

So your interpretation is Jesus' words is that if the individual refuses to listen to the church the church should "join" the rebell?! The church should join the rebel in rebellion... against the church.

Does that sum up your interpretation of the scripture?


What did Jesus mean by "IF he does not listen"... ? Surely regular and friendly association should not be dependent on NOT listening to the church! Are you suggesting Christians should only be kind and have dinner with people "If the do not listen to the church"? What if they DO listen to the church, does that mean don't have dinner with them.


Are you really thinking this through?

Hi JW, I think you are reading far too much into my post. I simply pointed out how Jesus interacts with tax collectors. It's right there in scripture. In one spot he tells people to treat others as tax collectors. In another spot Jesus is asking a tax collector to join him and then dining with even more tax collectors.

I'm not saying any of this makes sense, I'm simply pointing out what is in scripture. Do you have some scripture that says exactly what you are supposed to do in the company of tax collectors? It seems Jesus wasn't above interacting with them and clearly wasn't shunning them.

I left Christianity for the myriad of inconsistencies both in the Bible and the church. It's not my job to make it all fit together, but I'm more than happy to point out what is actually written and let others ponder how that's supposed to all fit together.

[JehovahsWitness]

I'm not saying any of this makes sense,..

Well if you are saying the scripture means if someone doesn't listen to the church, "join them" (presumably in not listening to the church) or if someone doesn't listen to the church, "have dinner with them".... then you are right, your interpretation doesn't make any sense.

Did you want to try again or shall we just leave it that you are puzzled and don't really know what Jesus was trying to say? No offense but your explanation so far is really illogical.

JW

[benchwarmer]

I'm not saying any of this makes sense,..

Well if you are saying the scripture means if someone doesn't listen to the church, "join them" (presumably in not listening to the church) or if someone doesn't listen to the church, "have dinner with them".... then you are right, your interpretation doesn't make any sense.

Did you want to try again or shall we just leave it that you are puzzled and don't really know what Jesus was trying to say? No offense but your explanation so far is really illogical.

JW

Again, I'm not trying to 'interpret' anything, I'm simply pointing out what's written. Feel free to interpret it however you like. I note you didn't/couldn't provide the scripture I asked for.

[JehovahsWitness]

Again, I'm not trying to 'interpret' anything....

Okay well thanks for taking the time to write something - I asked the question to see if there was anyone that had an interpretation. Since you don't , I'll just wait and see if there is anyone out there that does.


Thanks again,

JW

[tam]

Peace to you JW,

Again, I'm not trying to 'interpret' anything....

Okay well thanks for taking the time to write something - I asked the question to see if there was anyone that had an interpretation. Since you don't , I'll just wait and see if there is anyone out there that does.


Thanks again,

JW

Benchwarmer might not have had an 'interpretation', but Benchwarmer did what he should have done when wondering what Christ meant: find out what Christ did and taught us to do, with regard to tax collectors, etc.

We have actually had this conversation before; the question was similar, so I am just going to copy from that conversation:

One might want to ask oneself how Christ taught us to treat such people. By shunning them? Ex-communicating them? Disfellowshipping them?

From Matthew (who was himself a tax collector), chapter 5, verse 44-48:

"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

You then asked what the point was of the statement:

Perhaps so that you would then inquire and/or reason as to how Christ has taught that we should treat a pagan or a tax collector? Perhaps also that you could then reveal whether or not you understand what it means that God desires mercy, not sacrifice.


We would not follow them in their sin, but we would - if we are listening to Christ - ask forgiveness for them, ask mercy for them, and continue to show them love (as we are to love even our enemies).

We who are in Christ are to surpass what the tax collector and the pagan do, those from Matt 5:44-48. We are to do more than; not the same, and certainly not less.

viewtopic.php?t=18622&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy