Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready to

[Jagella]

I was studying Hebrews 11 today which praises people of faith. Verses 17-19 of that chapter lauds Abraham's obedience to God as Abraham was ready to murder his own son Isaac. (The original grotesque tale appears in Genesis 22.)

Would you murder your own son if God asked you to?

Yes--Well, this answer speaks for itself.

No--Then you admit that your religion is immoral.

I think I have faith of my own that none of the Christians here will give a straight, honest answer to this question. You will stonewall and do everything you can to divert attention away from this issue. You know that your religion is immoral but will never admit it.

[marco]

I don't think that this changes the general concern the OP expresses. Would it be the case that assigning 'respect' to the idea of fear in itself in any way makes the intention of the act (or the ideal some have expressed here that they would murder their child) any less despicable just because 'respect'?

I was simply reporting usage and meaning. My thoughts on the Abraham - Isaac affair should be clear from my earlier post. I find the story one of the most horrendous in the Bible and it offers a precedent - or excuse - for later behaviour done in God's name. Sadly, no rams appear on the streets of Paris or London while God is being honoured by the immolation of innocents, like Isaac.

Bombers are wrong? Misguided? Yes, and so was Abraham.

[Jagella]

[Replying to Jagella]

I am not Abraham.

Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice Isaac was a once-in-history event. Asking how someone would respond if God made the same demand today reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the account in Genesis and the nature of God.

I understand that according to Christian theology, God never changes.

Numbers 23:19:

God is not a human being, that he should lie, or a mortal, that he should change his mind.

1 Samuel 15:29:

Moreover the Glory of Israel will not recant or change his mind; for he is not a mortal, that he should change his mind.

Malachi 3:6:

For I the Lord do not change

Hebrews 13:8:

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

So it's the same ol' God today that asked Abraham to cut his son's throat and burn him to ashes. He might just ask you to do the same. What would you do?

So no, I would not sacrifice my child if “god� asked me to, because I would know that it was not God asking.

See the passages I posted above. You might need them when God asks you to sacrifice your own child.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 13 by Jagella]

I am sure you don't know if you are straw-manning the story of Abraham or not. There was zero possibility of Abraham killing his son. When you get to that point you might be interested in the story. For now, let's focus on where you are at. A recent video I watched was by John Kostik on the Akedah:

Jews and Christians have created a god who is inscrutable. In so doing you disqualify your own opinions regarding what he will or will not do. So if you cannot imagine God asking you to kill your own son, then your inability to do so doesn't matter. God can act contrary to what you think is right.
Consider Isaiah 55:8:
Quote:
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord.

Well, this is where you and I differ on that interpretation. For instance, we are made in the image of God and so can relate to God. Your point is actually entirely valid and I use it against Muslims. How can we know what the being outside the box wants if we have no relationship to that being? But there in Genesis, that issue is resolved by the being outside the box making us in his image. It's remarkable that the problem is explicitly solved in the Bible. Does that change anything for you? So there is plenty of room for Christians to reason and rationalise and discuss God's word. In fact we are to wrestle with God and his word. One could say you are being more Christian than many Christians by using this forum.

But perhaps now you can understand why Christians aren't engaged in this issue like you are imagining. We would like to serve God fully but God asking me to sacrifice my son isn't part of the relationship I have with God. So to be asked to do such a thing is 'square circleish'.

So I think you should revise your understanding of how blind you think the faith of a Christian needs to be. This is why your thread isn't the silver bullet you think it is. Honestly, I know I don't follow God enough to ever think he might make a real demand of me. Right now he is still getting me to do the basics more often and try to love others more. It would be amazing arrogance to compare myself to Abraham and even more so to imagine that my child as a sacrifice has any value compared to Jesus's sacrifice.

But you and I probably know we can end this thread more quickly depending on your answer and this seems to be a thread for straightforward answers to straightforward questions: are you pro-abortion or not - yes or no?

[Wootah]

But then, I cannot be 100% certain of that either. Your answer to the OP question certainly has me wondering as to what darkness resides within your psyche, but I think perhaps you are just confused.

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[Jagella]

[Replying to post 11 by liamconnor]

For the religion to be immoral God would have had to continue the sacrifice.

Intentions can be immoral too. Abraham intended to kill Isaac offering him up as a human sacrifice. God approved of Abraham's willingness to have gone through with the vile act. If I agree to murder a person, and at the last minute my mob boss calls of the hit, am I not still immoral? I'd be guilty of conspiracy to commit murder and probably attempted murder as well. What do you think modern youth agencies would do with a man who almost killed his son believing God wanted him to but only backed off at the last minute thinking God called it off? They'd have the guy arrested, and he'd probably be convicted and do prison time. So by the standards of modern morality, Abraham would be no hero but a criminal.

Did Abraham intend to kill Isaac, while believing that God could and would raise him (he said to the slave "we will return".

Yes, Abraham intended to murder Isaac believing God would raise Isaac from the dead. Hebrews 11:17-19:

By faith Abraham, when put to the test, offered up Isaac. He who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son, of whom he had been told, “It is through Isaac that descendants shall be named for you.� He considered the fact that God is able even to raise someone from the dead—and figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.

The Israelite religion as a whole condemned human sacrifice, unlike its neighboring religions. Thus an intellectually honest mind will read this episode in light of the religions general abhorrence of human sacrifice.

I'm not intellectually dishonest.

I think that generally the Hebrews did not practice human sacrifice, but they did definitely believe they needed to obey Yahweh in all things. That's why Abraham was ready to slaughter Isaac; he was demonstrating that even the life of his son was of secondary importance to his obeying God. So the lesson to all Jews and Christians is that human life is not as important as having faith in that great mob boss in the sky.

Of course, I understand that on a site like this we do not care about reading texts graciously; all we care about (as in the courtroom) is covering our own position and lambasting the other.

Yahweh is guilty as charged.

[ttruscott]

I think this highlights the evil in adherence to one's selfish belief in God. Today people do murder because they think God told them to.

OK BUT when was the last time that YHWH told anyone to kill anyone??? Why are the sins of the non-prophet put upon YHWH??? ?

Siks murder non-combatants without the will YHWH. Who cares?

Communists murder non-combatants without the will YHWH. Who cares?

[marco]

There was zero possibility of Abraham killing his son.

One would have thought there was zeo possibility of pious Job losing his children, but there you go. For the reader of the story there is every possibility the boy will die else we are in pantomime mode. Quite regardless of the outcome, the order itself is wicked. "Kill your son!" is an evil suggestion and there is no defence for it.

Abraham is revered by those who would bomb us, and this story offers some justification: God can sometimes demand that we kill innocent people. It is best seen as a teaching lesson for nomadic people, struggling to decide on which god to pick. God can ask anything - so be ready to serve, like Abraham.

Incidentally, we overlook the fact that Abraham told Abraham; Abraham reported on Abraham; there is nothing to suppose that God was involved at all; we have a butual man displaying brutality, the man who sent his other son and his mistress away into the desert, at the instigation of his wife.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 26 by ttruscott]

OK BUT when was the last time that YHWH told anyone to kill anyone???

It all depends on who exactly one asks. Since there is no objective way to find out if God actually did speak or not, this means literally anyone can say "God told me to do it" and we can't exactly prove them wrong.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 23 by Wootah]

There was zero possibility of Abraham killing his son.

So let's say you were a bystander. Are you going to say that when you witness what is happening, of Abraham tying Isaac to the altar, pulling out a knife and lowering his arm, that the possibility of said knife slicing Isaac's throat is literally zero?

We "know", after the fact, that Isaac was not killed...but in the moment?

A recent video I watched was by John Kostik on the Akedah

Wootah, that video is an hour and a half long. Any highlights, or are you implying that the entire video is important?

For instance, we are made in the image of God and so can relate to God. Your point is actually entirely valid and I use it against Muslims. How can we know what the being outside the box wants if we have no relationship to that being? But there in Genesis, that issue is resolved by the being outside the box making us in his image.

This point you raise is not as helpful as you might think. What does "created in his image" even mean?
There is no easy answer to that.

So there is plenty of room for Christians to reason and rationalise and discuss God's word. In fact we are to wrestle with God and his word.

But not be like Abraham? If God calls upon you to sacrifice your son, are you to wrestle with that?

We would like to serve God fully but God asking me to sacrifice my son isn't part of the relationship I have with God. So to be asked to do such a thing is 'square circleish'.

I have already debunked this claim of yours Wootah. Did God command Abraham to sacrifice his son? If you answer no, then the story is false. If you answer yes, then the concept can certainly be understood, comprehended and what you say here is false.
The relationship I have with my younger sister doesn't and I hope never includes her asking me to kill someone else I love...but it doesn't mean that I can't conceive of the possibility, think about it.

It would be amazing arrogance to compare myself to Abraham and even more so to imagine that my child as a sacrifice has any value compared to Jesus's sacrifice.

Here we have you debunking your own claim. Here we have you thinking about God potentially commanding you to sacrifice your child; you just think such a sacrifice wouldn't be as valuable as Jesus's, so therefore God wouldn't do it.
No-one on this thread made a comparison of the 'value' of one sacrifice to another. That is you, Wootah.

But you and I probably know we can end this thread more quickly depending on your answer and this seems to be a thread for straightforward answers to straightforward questions: are you pro-abortion or not - yes or no?

You've already answered the question that you would sacrifice your child if God told you to: you just give yourself an 'out' by claiming that the likelihood of God ever doing so is zero so therefore you don't need to ever worry about this moral conundrum you've just trapped yourself in.
I believe that the likelihood of my sister asking me to kill another person is zero too...but on the off-hand chance she does? I'd refuse. Strange how I can say I'd take the better route, but you don't.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready to


Yes, absolutely. .

In the same circumstances as Abraham, I hope my faith would be as strong as his.

JW






RELATED POSTS

Abraham: The Father of all those having faith
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 184#852184

This is what terrifies me about religion. The thought that there are people such as yourself who desperately desire to kill, and the only thing stopping them is that at this moment they don't believe God has told them to do it...yet.

Now of course, you said 'same circumstances'. What exactly does that mean? Does it mean you'd have to be in the same time and place as Abe? Does it mean you'd have to BE Abe, and have a son named Isaac? How literal does 'same circumstances' have to be?