Giving Up Sin to be a Christian

[Jagella]

Many Christian apologists tend to get a bit frustrated with the skeptics. All of the apologists' arguments and evidence often just don't convince many atheists and other unbelievers. How can those arguments and evidences fail to convince? So often the only answer to this question rests on the belief that the skeptics must be unwilling to give up their sin to become Christians. So...

Question for Debate: What sin might any of you unbelievers need to give up to become Christians?

Personally, I suppose I would need to give up swearing, cursing, and looking at porn although I know it's common for Christians to indulge in these sins.

[jeremiah1five]

Many Christian apologists tend to get a bit frustrated with the skeptics. All of the apologists' arguments and evidence often just don't convince many atheists and other unbelievers. How can those arguments and evidences fail to convince? So often the only answer to this question rests on the belief that the skeptics must be unwilling to give up their sin to become Christians. So...

Question for Debate: What sin might any of you unbelievers need to give up to become Christians?

Personally, I suppose I would need to give up swearing, cursing, and looking at porn although I know it's common for Christians to indulge in these sins.

You really can't 'give up [any] sins you commit.
You 'might' give up swearing but you commit theft. You 'might' give up theft, but there is still disobedience. You 'might' give up disobedience but you commit murder.

There is nothing to 'give up' because each and every Christian who is true-born of God still sins. We are all still in this body of this death and death is the penalty for sin and we will all die.
Maybe we can choose to give up the sin of death?

[1213]

There is nothing to 'give up' because each and every Christian who is true-born of God still sins.

Sorry, Bible seems to disagree with that, because it says:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

[jeremiah1five]

There is nothing to 'give up' because each and every Christian who is true-born of God still sins.

Sorry, Bible seems to disagree with that, because it says:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Good. However, consider....

There are two perspectives to consider when reading and studying the Scripture, that is, the first is the Eternal perspective of God (in which your passage can rightly be divided), in which we were contemplated in His Mind holy, sinless, and righteous, etc., and this is how He always had/has 'seen' His Elect, and the temporal perspective of man in TIME in which am a sinner in need of a Savior.

[07-07-07]

Yes, one must give up all sin to be received into God's Kingdom. There's no debating this point.

Ezekiel 18
[20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
[21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
[23] Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

[Divine Insight]

Yes, one must give up all sin to be received into God's Kingdom. There's no debating this point.

Ezekiel 18
[20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
[21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
[23] Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

So you reject the popular orthodox position that salvation is a gift given by God that cannot be earned but must be accepted on pure faith that Jesus is the Son of God and your savior?

Instead, you appear to be taking the position that salvation is entirely earned by an individual based upon their own righteousness.

Do I have this correct?

[07-07-07]

So you reject the popular orthodox position that salvation is a gift given by God that cannot be earned but must be accepted on pure faith that Jesus is the Son of God and your savior?

Instead, you appear to be taking the position that salvation is entirely earned by an individual based upon their own righteousness.

Do I have this correct?

Do you disagree with Ezekiel the prophet? Were his written words inspired by God or not? We must first establish this fact before I can delve deeper into your question.

[Divine Insight]

So you reject the popular orthodox position that salvation is a gift given by God that cannot be earned but must be accepted on pure faith that Jesus is the Son of God and your savior?

Instead, you appear to be taking the position that salvation is entirely earned by an individual based upon their own righteousness.

Do I have this correct?

Do you disagree with Ezekiel the prophet? Were his written words inspired by God or not? We must first establish this fact before I can delve deeper into your question.

Is there any reason why I should place Ezekiel's words over those of Paul?

Ephesians 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

By the way, I'll be the first to agree the the Biblical Canon contains endless contradictory claims.

Edited to add:

By the way, if you need to establish as fact that Ezekiel's words represent the infallible inspired word of God, then you most certainly have your work cut out for you. I can't imagine how you could ever establish that claim to be a fact.

[07-07-07]

Is there any reason why I should place Ezekiel's words over those of Paul?

Ephesians 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ezekiel and Paul said the same thing because it came from God.

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

By the way, I'll be the first to agree the the Biblical Canon contains endless contradictory claims.

By the way, if you need to establish as fact that Ezekiel's words represent the infallible inspired word of God, then you most certainly have your work cut out for you. I can't imagine how you could ever establish that claim to be a fact.

That's why it's pointless to debate with people who deny God's word.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 28 by 07-07-07]

Ezekiel and Paul said the same thing because it came from God.

I put it to you that you cannot demonstrate that "it" came from any version of "God".

[Divine Insight]

That's why it's pointless to debate with people who deny God's word.

That's exactly right. I have absolutely no reason to believe that Hebrew mythology represents the word of any God.

Not only this but you seem to have forgotten (or never realized), that this ancient mythology is the basis for all factions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Clearly they all cannot be the inspired word of God because they disagree on what this God has supposedly said. So if you are a "Christian" then you are in denial of "God's Word" according to Judaism, and Islam. Not only this, but since Christianity itself is a self-divided and self-conflicting collection of Christian disagreeing factions, even Christianity doesn't agree with itself.

Which Christianity have you embraced as representing the "Word of God"?

Catholicism?
Or one of the disagreeing factions of Protestantism that have protested against the Body of Christ which is Catholicism?

You can hardly claim that it's pointless to debate with people who deny God's Word, when you are necessarily among them. If you deny the Islamic Qur'an then you are the one who is denying "God's Word".

That's how that works.

This entire religious paradigm was never anything more than political propaganda being held up in the name of an imaginary God. A God that clearly does not exist.

In fact, here's an example from Christianity (in case this is the faction you believe in)

Mark 16:
[17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Can you drink any deadly thing and it won't hurt you?
Can you lay your hands on the sick and have them recover?

You know that you can't do either of these things.

Therefore, according to Mark you either don't believe in Jesus, or Mark is lying.

So what are you going to do? Toss Mark out as being an obvious fake?

I might add that once you start doing this you'll end up tossing out the entire Biblical Canon before too long.