In the biblical folklore, some of the millions of folks in the mixed multitude wandering in the wilderness objected to the dictatorship of Moses and his sidekick Aaron:
They gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and Yahweh is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of Yahweh?
The probably fictional Moses and the sidekick he would later defrock, were none too pleased.
But the definitely fictional Yahweh had it sorted:
And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
And there came out a fire from Yahweh, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
So, there we have it ... Yahweh wants HIS chosen dictator to be running the show in HIS name ...
And he'll have the earth swallow those with notions of democracy.
(I can't see how you can possibly read philosophy, or poetry, or love into this nasty little tale either, BTW. It looks like more human politics to me.)
And for centuries, Christian popes were sure that THEY should be ruling the world in Jesus' mighty name ... but only until he comes back with more fire and hail mixed with blood.
So, should we set Pope Francis, or Benny Hinn, or Pat Robertson (a woman would NEVER do) or some other senior white male over us as Theocrat ... as the "Word of God" quite clearly intends ...?
Democracy is Unbiblical
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Democracy is Unbiblical
Post #21God has in the past communicated his requirements in many ways from heaven. In bible times He has used angels, human representatives such as Prophets, divinely appointed Judges, Apostles and Church elders. He has even sent his own precious Son on occasion to provide teaching and gudelines. Today God's mandates and requirements are outlined in the bible and a small group of spirit anointed men ensure that theocratic order is maintained. We dont envision things being radically different from how 8 million plus of Jehovah's Witnesses are organised today.NervyGuy wrote: [Replying to post 12 by JehovahsWitness] ... if God is spirit, how will He be able to tell us how to behave?
If bible prophecy is to be believed, there will indeed be appointments of earthly representatives of that government to communicate further instructions and provide oversight. No society can operate without a degree of organisation so whatever systems Jesus puts in place will be duly applied through some form of administration.NervyGuy wrote:Do you conceive of an earth without any bureaucracy?
There will be no need for Judges in the sense of criminality, since there will be no crime. In bible times the Judges in Isreal were individuals appointed by God to provide instruction and guidance in the application of divine law. To what extent Jesus and his co-rulers will play a direct hand in this and how much and in what manner the earthly representatives will come into play, the Bible does not provide details, so I cannot say.NervyGuy wrote:No human judges? No police? Just God guiding each one of us directly, spiritually?
Police? Certainly not! Jehovah's people have never needed policing, there were no police in Israel and God's people today do not need anything but the Word and their bible trained consciences to control what they do or how they behave. Each individual Christian even now learns to "police" themselves, and since the meek alone will be alive, there will be absolutely nothing to fear from anyone else.
Just God guiding each one of us directly, spiritually? Through means of His holy spirit, his word the bible, those he has appointed as a "governing body" Jesus has been, we believe organising, guiding and protecting God's people since 1914. In a world of spiritual confusion, racial, social and economic divide he has kept us as a united, spiritually clean and in an ever-increasing international brotherhood. If He can do that in this old system of things, think what when all borders are removed, all poverty eliminated and only people that love God alive on the planet. The best, as they say is yet to come!!!!ISAIAH 11:9
They will not cause any harm nor any ruin in all my holy mountain,Because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters cover the sea. - NWT
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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:33 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: Democracy is Unbiblical
Post #22NervyGuy wrote:
But if God is spirit, how will He be able to tell us how to behave?
Do you conceive of an earth without any bureaucracy? No human judges? No police? Just God guiding each one of us directly, spiritually?
Welcome to the forum, NervyGuy.
There are blessings attached to God's being invisible, for some incredibly favoured people can communicate with him today with the panache of Moses.
In the distant future Jesus will be made President or Prime minister (I forget his title) and democracy will not be needed.
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Overcomer
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Post #23
I'm not exactly sure what you intended for debate in the OP, Stuart, as you didn't ask a question of any kind. I can explain why God stopped Korah's rebellion against Moses and Aaron, however. Look at it this way:
It's 19th-century America and you have been put in charge of a wagon train heading from Philadelphia to California. You know the routes. You know where the springs and creeks, etc. are to get water along the way. You know where the passes are in the mountains. You know the Indians with whom you will cross path -- which are friendly and which aren't. You also have good people skills and strong leadership ability.
However, there are some malcontents in the group. They don't know where they can find water, what the best route is, how to get along with the Indians they meet, etc. Yet they think they can do a better job. So they rally some hotheads and try to take over. They have to be dealt with or the entire wagon train will be lost. Nobody will get to California. They will perish long before they get there.
That's the way it was for Moses and Aaron and the rabble that tried to take over. Why would God allow a bunch of idiots to get rid of the leaders who knew how to get the people safely to their destination?
As for democracy, that's not a great way to run a wagon train or to get a huge amount of people to the Promised Land. This was an isolated group of people at a specific time in history heading for a particular goal. Therefore, it would be inapt to compare that situation to a 21st-century government.
Christians have no interest in setting up a theocracy here on earth. In fact, if you look down through history, it has been TRUE Christians who have advocated for democracy, people's rights and freedoms, education, and the right to free speech. As for Christ's return and his millennial reign, please disregard what the Jehovah Witnesses say about it. They misinterpret the Bible badly.
It's 19th-century America and you have been put in charge of a wagon train heading from Philadelphia to California. You know the routes. You know where the springs and creeks, etc. are to get water along the way. You know where the passes are in the mountains. You know the Indians with whom you will cross path -- which are friendly and which aren't. You also have good people skills and strong leadership ability.
However, there are some malcontents in the group. They don't know where they can find water, what the best route is, how to get along with the Indians they meet, etc. Yet they think they can do a better job. So they rally some hotheads and try to take over. They have to be dealt with or the entire wagon train will be lost. Nobody will get to California. They will perish long before they get there.
That's the way it was for Moses and Aaron and the rabble that tried to take over. Why would God allow a bunch of idiots to get rid of the leaders who knew how to get the people safely to their destination?
As for democracy, that's not a great way to run a wagon train or to get a huge amount of people to the Promised Land. This was an isolated group of people at a specific time in history heading for a particular goal. Therefore, it would be inapt to compare that situation to a 21st-century government.
Christians have no interest in setting up a theocracy here on earth. In fact, if you look down through history, it has been TRUE Christians who have advocated for democracy, people's rights and freedoms, education, and the right to free speech. As for Christ's return and his millennial reign, please disregard what the Jehovah Witnesses say about it. They misinterpret the Bible badly.
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StuartJ
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Post #25
[Replying to post 23 by Overcomer]
And we may take it that YOU have the CORRECT understanding of what the mythographers REALLY meant.As for Christ's return and his millennial reign, please disregard what the Jehovah Witnesses say about it. They misinterpret the Bible badly.
No one EVER demonstrates that "God" exists outside their parietal cortex.
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StuartJ
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Re: Democracy is Unbiblical
Post #26[Replying to post 20 by NervyGuy]
When Jesus comes back, all those who are not TRUE Christians will be burning in Hell, along with the Hindus and homosexuals and smart-mouth Atheists.
TRUE Christians will NEVER do wrong, so there will be no need for police and such in the bucolic idyll pictured in certain tracts.
Folks of faith will need to examine the objective criteria and independently verify the evidence for what determines TRUE Christianity.
I suggest that simply collectively BELIEVING that you and yours have got it right ...
And others BADLY MISINTERPRET the "scriptures" may have eternally fatal consequences ....
When Jesus comes back, all those who are not TRUE Christians will be burning in Hell, along with the Hindus and homosexuals and smart-mouth Atheists.
TRUE Christians will NEVER do wrong, so there will be no need for police and such in the bucolic idyll pictured in certain tracts.
Folks of faith will need to examine the objective criteria and independently verify the evidence for what determines TRUE Christianity.
I suggest that simply collectively BELIEVING that you and yours have got it right ...
And others BADLY MISINTERPRET the "scriptures" may have eternally fatal consequences ....
No one EVER demonstrates that "God" exists outside their parietal cortex.
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StuartJ
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Re: Democracy is Unbiblical
Post #27[Replying to post 21 by JehovahsWitness]
And ...
In my experience ...
Can be full of fantastical make-believe, imagined by folks with little ability to discern reality.
I put it to you that you can't back a single one of those claims with anything approaching any sort of independently verifiable evidence.God has in the past communicated his requirements in many ways from heaven. In bible times He has used angels, human representatives such as Prophets, divinely appointed Judges, Apostles and Church elders. He has even sent his own precious Son on occasion to provide teaching and gudelines.
"Faith-based beliefs" need not have anything to do with reality ...NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses
And ...
In my experience ...
Can be full of fantastical make-believe, imagined by folks with little ability to discern reality.
No one EVER demonstrates that "God" exists outside their parietal cortex.
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rikuoamero
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Post #28
[Replying to post 23 by Overcomer]
Read the story of Numbers 16 and look at it from the 'malcontents' point of view. Moses is the only one who went on top of the mountain. Only Moses went. Only Moses heard God (or so he says). Only Moses received God's laws. Only Moses heard that Moses was to be the leader of the Hebrews. When Moses came down from the mountain, the first thing he did was to slaughter thousands for worshipping a golden bull, but conveniently not his brother, who was the fellow who MADE IT!
If I were in the Hebrew crowd, I'd be very suspicious at all of this. Are Dathan and Abiram wrong when they say "And now you also want to lord it over us! 14 Moreover, you havent brought us into a land flowing with milk and honey or given us an inheritance of fields and vineyards. Do you want to treat these men like slaves? No, we will not come!"?
After all...did God, when he told, via Moses, for the Hebrews to leave Egypt and to go to a Promised Land of milk and honey, that the land would already be occupied and they'd have to wage wars?
Is a theocracy? How is a theocracy any better, when we apparently see the god behind it all having the earth swallow hundreds, or starting plagues that kill thousands, simply because people complain?
Yeah...so? Just because they're a group of people with a goal doesn't mean that their mode of government is automagically the best one.
Pull the other one! Christians throughout history have set up theocracies. There's the Vatican in Rome, for one example, the popes of which at points throughout history literally ruled kingdoms. You should also read JWs posts sometime - he/she is looking forward to a theocracy set up by Christ.
There's also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Athos
Please don't play No True Scotsman. What were the people of Europe during the Middle Ages who didn't even know of democracy, who were ruled by kings anointed by popes? Were they not true christians? Was Charlemagne not a true Christian?
I agree with you that they misinterpret the Bible...but are you implying that they are not true Christians, or that their promised form of Christian world government would not be a theocracy?
Your analogy does not work at all, since that is nothing like the story in Numbers 16. I see people protesting that Moses and Aaron have set themselves up above the people, which I envision is a fair argument to make.That's the way it was for Moses and Aaron and the rabble that tried to take over. Why would God allow a bunch of idiots to get rid of the leaders who knew how to get the people safely to their destination?
Read the story of Numbers 16 and look at it from the 'malcontents' point of view. Moses is the only one who went on top of the mountain. Only Moses went. Only Moses heard God (or so he says). Only Moses received God's laws. Only Moses heard that Moses was to be the leader of the Hebrews. When Moses came down from the mountain, the first thing he did was to slaughter thousands for worshipping a golden bull, but conveniently not his brother, who was the fellow who MADE IT!
If I were in the Hebrew crowd, I'd be very suspicious at all of this. Are Dathan and Abiram wrong when they say "And now you also want to lord it over us! 14 Moreover, you havent brought us into a land flowing with milk and honey or given us an inheritance of fields and vineyards. Do you want to treat these men like slaves? No, we will not come!"?
After all...did God, when he told, via Moses, for the Hebrews to leave Egypt and to go to a Promised Land of milk and honey, that the land would already be occupied and they'd have to wage wars?
As for democracy, that's not a great way to run a wagon train or to get a huge amount of people to the Promised Land.
Is a theocracy? How is a theocracy any better, when we apparently see the god behind it all having the earth swallow hundreds, or starting plagues that kill thousands, simply because people complain?
This was an isolated group of people at a specific time in history heading for a particular goal.
Yeah...so? Just because they're a group of people with a goal doesn't mean that their mode of government is automagically the best one.
Christians have no interest in setting up a theocracy here on earth.
Pull the other one! Christians throughout history have set up theocracies. There's the Vatican in Rome, for one example, the popes of which at points throughout history literally ruled kingdoms. You should also read JWs posts sometime - he/she is looking forward to a theocracy set up by Christ.
There's also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Athos
In fact, if you look down through history, it has been TRUE Christians who have advocated for democracy, people's rights and freedoms, education, and the right to free speech.
Please don't play No True Scotsman. What were the people of Europe during the Middle Ages who didn't even know of democracy, who were ruled by kings anointed by popes? Were they not true christians? Was Charlemagne not a true Christian?
As for Christ's return and his millennial reign, please disregard what the Jehovah Witnesses say about it. They misinterpret the Bible badly.
I agree with you that they misinterpret the Bible...but are you implying that they are not true Christians, or that their promised form of Christian world government would not be a theocracy?
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Re: Democracy is Unbiblical
Post #29Not only that, but the further they are from reality, the more acceptable they are to some.
"Hey buddy, if you invest $100 today, I'll pay you $1,000 next year."
"No thanks."
"Hey buddy, if you buy my story, you can live in paradise with God forever."
"Sign me up!"
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
Post #30
Let us be serious. The journey in the wilderness took FORTY YEARS. If someone on the Wild West wagon train asked: "When will we get there?" the answer: "Oh, in forty years time!" might bring just a hint of a complaint. If God was in charge and his SAT NAV meant a travel time of 40 years, never mind the battles, there would be a temptation to look for a better god. That's what - understandably - happened. Democracy sounds like common sense in the situation.Overcomer wrote:
However, there are some malcontents in the group.
That's the way it was for Moses and Aaron and the rabble that tried to take over. Why would God allow a bunch of idiots to get rid of the leaders who knew how to get the people safely to their destination?
