Is the Holy Book holy?

[marco]

Here are two excerpts from the Holy Book:

1. Then Samuel said, Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites. Agag came to him cheerfully, for he thought, Surely the bitterness of death is past. But Samuel declared: As your sword has made women childless, so your mother will be childless among women. And Samuel hacked Agag to pieces before the LORD at Gilgal.


2. David ran and stood over him. He took hold of the Philistine's sword and drew it from the sheath. After he killed him, he cut off his head with the sword.

Samuel and David are revered, apparently favourites of Yahweh. Their actions here sound savage.

Does this cast doubt on the holiness of the Bible?
Does it suggest Yahweh is in favour of savagery?

[Zzyzx]

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Made me start questioning what's the point of giving... Like truly?

It might be wise to do a bit of research before making donations. Churches typically give VERY little to benevolent causes (most income goes to buildings, maintenance, salaries).

https://www.charitywatch.org/
https://www.give.org/
https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Guid ... -they-rate

[Tart]

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Made me start questioning what's the point of giving... Like truly?

It might be wise to do a bit of research before making donations. Churches typically give VERY little to benevolent causes (most income goes to buildings, maintenance, salaries).

https://www.charitywatch.org/
https://www.give.org/
https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Guid ... -they-rate

Ya... it depends i guess... On the church... Honestly... I lean toward Catholicism in some ways, though im not sure if id be a catholic... In fact i had a crazy vision when i was in Rome... It was right after going to Saint Peter's Basilica... It was almost like a proposal. it was kind of strange. It was like the most intricate, detailed, grand, wedding ring I ever saw...

"Catholic Church: World's biggest charitable organization."
https://www.google.com/search?q=most+ch ... e&ie=UTF-8

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 22 by Tart]

"Bankers' best guesses about the Vatican's wealth put it at $10 billion to $15 billion. Of this wealth, Italian stockholdings alone run to $1.6 billion, 15% of the value of listed shares on the Italian market. The Vatican has big investments in banking, insurance, chemicals, steel, construction, real estate

Is this where donations should go?

Another statement, made by a nationally syndicated Catholic priest, perhaps is even more telling. The Catholic church, he said, must be the biggest corporation in the United States. We have a branch office in every neighborhood. Our assets and real estate holdings must exceed those of Standard Oil, A.T.&T., and U.S. Steel combined. And our roster of dues-paying members must be second only to the tax rolls of the United States Government. ()

The Catholic church, once all her assets have been put together, is the most formidable stockbroker in the world. The Vatican, independently of each successive pope, has been increasingly orientated towards the U.S. The Wall Street Journal said that the Vaticans financial deals in the U.S. alone were so big that very often it sold or bought gold in lots of a million or more dollars at one time. ()

The Vaticans treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars. A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest.

But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment. ()

The Catholic church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence. She is a greater possessor of material riches than any other single institution, corporation, bank, giant trust, government or state of the whole globe. http://www.zubeidajaffer.co.za/the-cath ... -on-earth/

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Is the Holy Book holy? Why include killing?

Because killing is sometimes what has to be done in the war betwwen good and evil.

Something for all believers of a god to consider.
If your (generic) god is false, like all the other gods concepts out there, then all the killing is needless as the war between good and evil (like how it is evil to believe in the wrong god for example) is imaginary.

More and more people are coming to the conclusion (at least in developed countries) that the gods are human inventions, so perhaps the wars, killing and division caused by competing religions will wane as well?

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Does this cast doubt on the holiness of the Bible?
Does it suggest Yahweh is in favour of savagery?

Nope just simply a different view of the natural state of man. From your comments you seem to be coming from a humanistic view of man i.e. that man is basically good.

This is not the view of the Bible. The Bible views man as carnal and bent on sin. So which does observation reveal to be true. What would happen in the cities if all law enforcement ceased? This does not seem to be to hard to imagine.

It is because of this view of man, God instituted government as a way to control the carnal or sinful man. Accordingly God instituted the most severe punishment for the most severe crimes, or crimes that indicated a heart that was never going to choose righteousness. To protect the those that choose righteousness.

It seems that this 'natural evil state of man' is just something that your religions claims is a thing. Not something that is viewed in reality by observing how evil atheists are compared to the religious for example.

You must first be convinced that you are sick (original sin) before you will buy the medicine though of course. Therefore, the book offering the medicine MUST start off by informing you of your sickness.

Also, societies created governments. It's make believe to pretend that the gods had anything to do with it.

To further address this and to get back to the OP, humans do things and then credit/blame their god concept to justify the human action that has taken place. I assume that is how much of the terrible things in the Bible got there. Humans did evil, then justified it as good because of their god concept. See Samuel's and David's actions. They get to be considered heroes when we should be acknowledging their vile behavior.

[Tcg]

As for David taking off Goliaths head, of COURSE he cut if his head to ensure he was dead, did you not read of the size of the man! A very basic in that kind of situation would surely have bee to ensure your opponent is dead before turning your back on him.

This tale doesn't jive with scripture:

• 1 Samuel 17:51 David ran and stood over him. He took hold of the Philistines sword and drew it from the sheath. After he killed him, he cut off his head with the sword.
  
  <bolding mine>

We find that David cut of Goliath's head after he killed not in order to kill him.

Checking the text again we find what David did with Goliath's head:

• 1 Samuel 17:54 David took the Philistines head and brought it to Jerusalem; he put the Philistines weapons in his own tent.

Certainly David didn't take his head to Jerusalem to make sure Goliath was dead. It was a gruesome way to display that he had killed Goliath. Proof that he had the right to brag.

Both of these verses are a good example of why it is vitally important to check the actual text before developing theories about what reportedly happened.


Tcg

[ttruscott]

Does this cast doubt on the holiness of the Bible?

What do you think holy means? A namby pamby fake goodness based upon political correctness rather than true righteousness? Holiness is dedication to GOD, HIS ways, and HIS plans, ie, to be in accord with HIM, HIS plans and HIS decisions, even the ones including the death Joshua 6:21; 8:26,27; 10:40 of women and children

Sinners are under judgement. They have been sentenced to death. This is a GODly thing. Some criminals are under the sentence of death from men. If the death is also to make a statement about crime and punishment, how is it that modern secular anti-Godly sensibilities are suddenly the measure of rightness for men of past ages and for GOD?

There is nothing in the Bible that is not dedicated to HIS Majesty - death and the means of death included.

[Tcg]

Holiness is dedication to GOD, HIS ways, and HIS plans, ie, to be in accord with HIM, HIS plans and HIS decisions, even the ones including the death Joshua 6:21; 8:26,27; 10:40 of women and children

The problem with this theory is that God's "holiness" is a perfect refection of the brutality practiced by humans. His morality is no better than the humans he claims to be more holy than.

This of course may very well point to the origin of this creature. Brutal humans aren't likely to create a peaceful god. They would design a god that is as brutal as they, but even better at it. They succeeded.


Tcg

[marco]

What do you think holy means? A namby pamby fake goodness based upon political correctness rather than true righteousness? Holiness is dedication to GOD, HIS ways, and HIS plans, ie, to be in accord with HIM, HIS plans and HIS decisions, even the ones including the death Joshua 6:21; 8:26,27; 10:40 of women and children

I was going by the usual definition of morally good. Your definition of holiness is very close to Stalinism and the results remarkably similar.

Stalin's type of holiness killed between 20 and 60 million people. Your recommended reading says:

"They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it-men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys."

Most would regard the above as evil. Stern attention to rigour, laws, dumb obedience and cruel punishment is not usually associated with holiness. But if holy means merciless and cruel, perhaps I should have asked whether the Bible is a good book.

There is nothing in the Bible that is not dedicated to HIS Majesty - death and the means of death included.

Then perhaps Satan is a better master. He is not reported as being guilty of atrocities.

[Tart]

Here are two excerpts from the Holy Book:

1. Then Samuel said, Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites. Agag came to him cheerfully, for he thought, Surely the bitterness of death is past. But Samuel declared: As your sword has made women childless, so your mother will be childless among women. And Samuel hacked Agag to pieces before the LORD at Gilgal.


2. David ran and stood over him. He took hold of the Philistine's sword and drew it from the sheath. After he killed him, he cut off his head with the sword.

Samuel and David are revered, apparently favourites of Yahweh. Their actions here sound savage.

Does this cast doubt on the holiness of the Bible?
Does it suggest Yahweh is in favour of savagery?

Good question marco... One thing to take into consideration when interpreting this is that all men in the Old Testament (as far as i know), failed God from time to time. There are parts in the Bible where God is disappointed with David doing immoral things in his life. So the fact that David or Samuel did something, (or even did it in the "presence of the Lord") does not automatically suggest that it is in favor of the Lord..

I just wanted to point that out...