Christians: What passage/s convince you that Jesus is the messiah?

[Avoice]

To Christians:
What passage or passages convince you that Jesus is the Messiah?
And are the passages upheld by the Hebrew scriptures?

[1213]

... The most famous in Isaiah are obviously taken out of a context that is nothing to do with Jesus, ...

Why do you think so?

[TRANSPONDER]

... The most famous in Isaiah are obviously taken out of a context that is nothing to do with Jesus, ...

Why do you think so?

Because I have debated prophecy before and I have seen it. You are welcome to take any prophecy of Jesus and we can look at it in context and see whether it related to some event of the time (Usually the Assyrians) or was about something or someone detached from that.

[MilesJBennell]

Very briefly, In Jewish thought, a Messiah is a top temporal post, signified by anointing. There are two (mainly) High priest and king. While High Priest was by election and kingship was by lineage, usurpation or war (the usual) it could also be because God said so or the order of Melchizedek.


The Christian idea is clearly different. Messiah = divinity and semi divine if not identical with God.

I have talked to a small number of modern Jews that are expecting the messiah. When I ask them how will they know that he is the messiah, they say that they will just know. Like this poster...

There's an old Jewish folks tale that goes as follows:

Yankel was an old world "Shtetl Jew" (think Fiddler On The Roof), his neighbor Vassily was constantly trying to show him the light. One day Vassily says "Yankel, what will you do if your Messiah comes tomorrow and I don't believe in him?" Without thinking twice Yankel says "Vassily my friend, if you don't believe in him, I won't believe in him either".

According to Jewish tradition, Moshiach will completely transform the world and bring in an era of peace where the entire world will be occupied with the knowledge of God. It will be very hard to mistake.

That is how I have imagined the Jews in Jesus day were expecting to know that their Messiah had arrived. Like the woman at the well...

29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

A verse that Jews from 2000 years ago would have known would be Ezekiel 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The idea that God would implant his spirit into humans would imply that these humans would recognize God's messiah without being taught by human means. So for Jesus to say "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." Would explain why so few people will come to Jesus. Yet, it is an experience that nothing else can be compared to, just the idea of knowing the creator of all things including the self.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to MilesJBennell in post #23]

A problem right away is, if this god could implant an innate ability to recognise the messiah (as distinct from imposters), there is no logical reason why it couldn't or shouldn't or wouldn't implant such an innate knowledge in all of us, so there would be any doubts about a god or which one it was.

That implies, I would say, that the claim that we will all know the true messiah when he comes is a claim without force, logic or support. It rules Jesus out as clearly he wasn't known or believed by all, and the messiah couldn't have come at that time.

Whatever one thinks of the Jewish view of messianism, which so far as I can gather, means a world ruled by Jews with a convenient amount of Righteous gentiles permitted to live, as someone has to do all the work, the Christian view is little to do with that and is just making up tall tales and incoherent stories about one of a pretty long list of failed (Jewish) messiahs.

cue...and I am weak - I can't resist it "Ho, ho, my boy, my boy, you understand nothing; God, will do it however he wants it."

"No, Rabbi, this god will in your view do it however you want it.".

[MilesJBennell]

[Replying to MilesJBennell in post #23]

A problem right away is, if this god could implant an innate ability to recognise the messiah (as distinct from imposters), there is no logical reason why it couldn't or shouldn't or wouldn't implant such an innate knowledge in all of us, so there would be any doubts about a god or which one it was.

The same could be said for all the learning we get from going to school. There is no logical reason why God couldn't or shouldn't or wouldn't implant such an innate knowledge in all of us. Sure would save us from all the torture we endure in going to school. Greta Thunberg would be the happiest girl in Sweden were this the case.
Do we even have any reason to think that all the knowledge we have is local to our brains? It is like when I ask Siri what the temperature is, she will instantly tell me as if she had that knowledge inside her, when we all know that the information resides and comes from the cloud.

That implies, I would say, that the claim that we will all know the true messiah when he comes is a claim without force, logic or support. It rules Jesus out as clearly he wasn't known or believed by all, and the messiah couldn't have come at that time.

The Bible is clear about who God would reveal Jesus to, in his first advent. There is also no reason to think that he had to reveal it to all the people. While the second advent sounds like it will be all people.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

Whatever one thinks of the Jewish view of messianism, which so far as I can gather, means a world ruled by Jews with a convenient amount of Righteous gentiles permitted to live, as someone has to do all the work, the Christian view is little to do with that and is just making up tall tales and incoherent stories about one of a pretty long list of failed (Jewish) messiahs.

There is no reason to think that 'someone has to do all the work', even my own ancestors never did any work, they were on vacation 24/7. They used to hunt and fish and sing songs around the campfire just like I get to do for two weeks out of the year.

[TRANSPONDER]

It is certainly an interesting idea as to why God doesn't answer all of our questions. We are so used to having a lot of unknowns that we don't even question it

Of course the question of Faith comes into it - if we Know, Faith has no value as Faith is the brownie points you get for believing something without evidence that replaces Faith with knowledge.

So while one could argue about why God doesn't put in our heads whether global warming is true or not, what to do about the middle east and whom we should vote for, it makes no sense that God should leave us in such doubt about whether there is a god or not and which one.

Because that would destroy Faith? Admitted, this seems to be essential. Even when (the Bible relates) people saw Jesus do miracles, some believed and some didn't. If believing in Jesus is what saves, then put into the peoples head definite knowledge that Jesus is God.

Cue excuses and i can think some up myself, but the Real point is the mindset; the Theist apologist mindset is that they win if they can come up with a good excuse. .or some kind of excuse...as to why God wouldn't make sure we knew for sure what we needed to know to be saved. But the logical way is that if an equally valid or better explanation is - it is all made up by religious writers.

We goddless really use a valid claim of the materialist default or 'Miracles don't happen' which is that the naturalistic explanation if just as w valid, is the one to be preferred,

I hardly need post but i will, for fun, is that the Theist mindset will be stuck with the idea something like "Well Jesusgod, the Bible and my Church Dogma is true, so logical arguments don't matter'. There is the idea that making Claims and posting a barely relevant Bible passage is all the evidence needed, but no explanation is needed - it is claim and anything even remotely related is supposed to be proof positive, and I claim to comprehend that very well, I a still trying to understand why people want to think that way.

But I think I know that, too, it is easy, it is popular and it validates the individual, and there you go. Off topic: The wearing of religious, social or political symbols as aggression and challenge, and also defiance (see wearing diapers as a political statement). But that belongs on a different forum.

[MilesJBennell]

If believing in Jesus is what saves, then put into the peoples head definite knowledge that Jesus is God.

Are we conflating 'believing'? It can mean 'accept as true' or believing in Jesus as in 'are we trusting Him as our savior, who died for us, for the forgiveness of our sins, so that our spirit could be brought to life?'

According to the Bible we are dead and we need Jesus to bring us to life.

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

We who are dead do not know what it is like to be spiritually alive, until we are born again.

I asked google AI about this and this is what it said...

The Bible teaches that God chose people before the world was created to be holy and blameless before Him, and that this choice was based on His sovereign purpose, not human merits. However, the Bible also teaches that people have free will and are responsible for their actions. 


Here are some Bible verses that relate to God's choice and human responsibility: 


Ephesians 1:4-6 
God chose people in Christ before the world was made to be holy and blameless before Him. 





John 6:37 
"All those the Father gives me will come to me" and "whoever comes to me I will never drive away". 





2 Peter 3:9 
"He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". 





John 6:65 
"No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father". 

Even the machines are now preaching the gospel of Christ, I can only imagine that soon even the stones will cry out.

...it makes no sense that God should leave us in such doubt about whether there is a god or not and which one.

I am persuaded that soon there will be no doubt. Just look at the condition of the world and what the Bible prophesied about the 'last days'.

[TRANSPONDER]

If believing in Jesus is what saves, then put into the peoples head definite knowledge that Jesus is God.

Are we conflating 'believing'? It can mean 'accept as true' or believing in Jesus as in 'are we trusting Him as our savior, who died for us, for the forgiveness of our sins, so that our spirit could be brought to life?'

According to the Bible we are dead and we need Jesus to bring us to life.

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

We who are dead do not know what it is like to be spiritually alive, until we are born again.

I asked google AI about this and this is what it said...

The Bible teaches that God chose people before the world was created to be holy and blameless before Him, and that this choice was based on His sovereign purpose, not human merits. However, the Bible also teaches that people have free will and are responsible for their actions. 


Here are some Bible verses that relate to God's choice and human responsibility: 


Ephesians 1:4-6 
God chose people in Christ before the world was made to be holy and blameless before Him. 





John 6:37 
"All those the Father gives me will come to me" and "whoever comes to me I will never drive away". 





2 Peter 3:9 
"He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". 





John 6:65 
"No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father". 

Even the machines are now preaching the gospel of Christ, I can only imagine that soon even the stones will cry out.

...it makes no sense that God should leave us in such doubt about whether there is a god or not and which one.

I am persuaded that soon there will be no doubt. Just look at the condition of the world and what the Bible prophesied about the 'last days'.

That looks like Conflating things, not to say confusing them.

I know the topic is about what convinces of Jesi us' messiahship but claims that appear dubious are asking to be questioned. 'accept as true' covers all kinds of beliefs on valid or invalid grounds. Accepting the claims about Jesus depends on believing the Bible is correct. I see no good reason to.

Which is who quoting random Bibletexts means nothing, unless in the strict terms of the topic - what convinces you of messiahship.

But conflating 'dead' with 'spiritually dead' is apples and oranges. Dead is dead, Spiritually dead is a pejorative term for anyone who has not has the faculty of religious -inspired self - deception activated, so they know that they believe is true, just because they believe it.

for example, end of world prophecies. True, we are going through a sticky patch at this time. I can trace this to religious fundamentalism as much as anything so I am unimpressed by ecstatic declarations that the world is imploding and the end will soon come. Every single end of world prophecy has been false. The success record is perfect - total fail.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Avoice in post #1]

None of them. The bible had nothing to do with it for me. God revealed himself to me when I was an atheist when I taught that YHWH Was evil. To keep it short, God led me to Catholicism.

[Tcg]

[Replying to Avoice in post #1]

None of them. The bible had nothing to do with it for me. God revealed himself to me when I was an atheist when I taught that YHWH Was evil. To keep it short, God led me to Catholicism.

Did you believe that YHWH existed when you were teaching that YHWH was evil?


Tcg