The elephant(s) in the room with us

[The Duke of Vandals]

Let's talk about what Christians don't want to talk about.

• Let's talk about the fact the early church had a vested interest in perpetuating the myth of Christ.
• Let's talk about the fact the things Jesus allegedly does are absurd, ridiculous, completely impossible and wouldn't be taken seriously in the slightest without heavy indoctrination (usually from birth, but sometimes from times of emotional stress).
• Let's talk about the fact Christians are indoctrinated to associate positive experiences with god and delude themselves into thinking they can "feel" Jesus.
• Most of all, let's talk about the fact humans... even intelligent humans... can be easily tricked. There are Ph.D.'s and captains of industry who, in spite of massive intellects, are still duped by con men. The entire mormon religion was started by a con man and now boasts millions of members worldwide without ever having a scrap of truth to it.

Without fail, these issues get tiptoed around in debate.

We're supposed to treat the obviously impossible claims of the gospel as though they're perfectly possible things... as common as the names of ancient places. "There were Egyptians and Hebrews... why not a red sea parting?" As though anything written down in an old book and claimed as true should be taken that way? We should believe it because some scholar has convinced you the author believed it?

Christians, you're too smart to be this stupid. I have tremendous respect for your intellect. You are the victims of a 1600+ year old con and here. There's absolutely no reason for 21st century intellectuals to be slaves to bronze age idiocy and second century propaganda.

Topic for debate: amirite?

[Goat]

The vast majority of religious beliefs are unprovable. Many of those beliefs are against common sense, yet that does not stop people from insisting it is 'true'.

Would you also agree that a vast majority of non-theistic beliefs are unprovable?

It depends. It depends on what you mean by 'provable'. There are many non-theistic beliefs that have over whelming evidence for. There is a difference between a statement of faith.. and coming to a conclusion due to a large amount of objective evidence.

I would say that a lot of those believes are 'provable'. There are many that are not, but many that are.

[bernee51]

you are quite simply ignore the fact that many many people from non religious backgrounds become Christians...and that many come to faith as adults.........do you really think all christians are brainless dummies who simply follow whats told them like zombies/ ....there are people who come to Him as kids and many who come to His as adults........thats a commonly known fact. so what do you do with that?

What do I do with that? Tell it for what it is.

People come to all sorts of beliefs because they (the beliefs) are translative. The beliefs help give them meaning and purpose in the face of the obvious suffering in the world. That belief can be christianity, islam, wiccan, {{{insert name of preferred belief - or non-belief}}. That is an understandable motive and a useful purpose but it does not make the belief anything other than a belief.

I would suggest the majority of children do not 'come' to religion...they are led there by significant others in their life.

its makes it more than just a "belief"if its true

What makes one belief true and other not?

[Easyrider]

Let's talk about what Christians don't want to talk about.

You base this myth on what? We're here talking about it, aren't we?

Let's talk about the fact the early church had a vested interest in perpetuating the myth of Christ.

No foundation that the historical accounts of Christ are a myth. But they did have a keen interest in furthering the Good News of Christ and his Salvation so that many would be saved.

Let's talk about the fact the things Jesus allegedly does are absurd, ridiculous, completely impossible and wouldn't be taken seriously in the slightest without heavy indoctrination (usually from birth, but sometimes from times of emotional stress).

That's wrong on a lot of different levels. I suppose the great Simon Greenleaf - the former skepic of Christianity who later turned believer, and others like him - were indoctrinated too? Get real.

Let's talk about the fact Christians are indoctrinated to associate positive experiences with god and delude themselves into thinking they can "feel" Jesus.

No indoctrination is needed. Certainly Saul of Tarsus wasn't.

No foundation for being "deluded." That statement is a delusion IMO.

Most of all, let's talk about the fact humans... even intelligent humans... can be easily tricked. There are Ph.D.'s and captains of industry who, in spite of massive intellects, are still duped by con men.

Who was the con man who got Saul of Tarsus? Simon Greenleaf? And millions of others? Sounds like you're the one pushing the snake oil with these gross and inaccurate generalizations.

The entire mormon religion was started by a con man and now boasts millions of members worldwide without ever having a scrap of truth to it.

Now that I would agree with. However, what holds true for one doesn't mean 100% of religions were con jobs.

We're supposed to treat the obviously impossible claims of the gospel...

No foundation for "impossible claims." Even numerous scientists will tell you science cannot disprove the existence of God and the supernatural.

Christians, you're too smart to be this stupid. I have tremendous respect for your intellect. You are the victims of a 1600+ year old con and here. There's absolutely no reason for 21st century intellectuals to be slaves to bronze age idiocy and second century propaganda.

Speaking of misinformation and indoctrination.....

[katiej49]

you are quite simply ignore the fact that many many people from non religious backgrounds become Christians...and that many come to faith as adults.........do you really think all christians are brainless dummies who simply follow whats told them like zombies/ ....there are people who come to Him as kids and many who come to His as adults........thats a commonly known fact. so what do you do with that?

What do I do with that? Tell it for what it is.

People come to all sorts of beliefs because they (the beliefs) are translative. The beliefs help give them meaning and purpose in the face of the obvious suffering in the world. That belief can be christianity, islam, wiccan, {{{insert name of preferred belief - or non-belief}}. That is an understandable motive and a useful purpose but it does not make the belief anything other than a belief.

I would suggest the majority of children do not 'come' to religion...they are led there by significant others in their life.

its makes it more than just a "belief"if its true

What makes one belief true and other not?

something is true or it aint.

[bernee51]

you are quite simply ignore the fact that many many people from non religious backgrounds become Christians...and that many come to faith as adults.........do you really think all christians are brainless dummies who simply follow whats told them like zombies/ ....there are people who come to Him as kids and many who come to His as adults........thats a commonly known fact. so what do you do with that?

What do I do with that? Tell it for what it is.

People come to all sorts of beliefs because they (the beliefs) are translative. The beliefs help give them meaning and purpose in the face of the obvious suffering in the world. That belief can be christianity, islam, wiccan, {{{insert name of preferred belief - or non-belief}}. That is an understandable motive and a useful purpose but it does not make the belief anything other than a belief.

I would suggest the majority of children do not 'come' to religion...they are led there by significant others in their life.

its makes it more than just a "belief"if its true

What makes one belief true and other not?

something is true or it aint.

If something can be believed to be true and later shown not to be - how 'true' was it?

And how do you determine that your belief is 'true' and ny friend Yusuf's is not - other than your belief that it is?

[katiej49]

you are quite simply ignore the fact that many many people from non religious backgrounds become Christians...and that many come to faith as adults.........do you really think all christians are brainless dummies who simply follow whats told them like zombies/ ....there are people who come to Him as kids and many who come to His as adults........thats a commonly known fact. so what do you do with that?

What do I do with that? Tell it for what it is.

People come to all sorts of beliefs because they (the beliefs) are translative. The beliefs help give them meaning and purpose in the face of the obvious suffering in the world. That belief can be christianity, islam, wiccan, {{{insert name of preferred belief - or non-belief}}. That is an understandable motive and a useful purpose but it does not make the belief anything other than a belief.

I would suggest the majority of children do not 'come' to religion...they are led there by significant others in their life.

its makes it more than just a "belief"if its true

What makes one belief true and other not?

something is true or it aint.

If something can be believed to be true and later shown not to be - how 'true' was it?

And how do you determine that your belief is 'true' and ny friend Yusuf's is not - other than your belief that it is?

i just dont know what else to say to the "prove it" issues.....everyone must examine it for themselves and decide....may God guide all here into truth

[bernee51]

Now that I would agree with. However, what holds true for one doesn't mean 100% of religions were con jobs.

it's interesting to note that the only one you consider not to be a con job is the one you believe in.

which is exactly the mindset of the nutters who would fly planes into buildings.

No foundation for "impossible claims."

Sure - snakes talk, men live inside fish, people walk on water and raise themselves from the dead every day.

Even numerous scientists will tell you science cannot disprove the existence of God and the supernatural.

Did you know that there is a teapot orbiting the sun between the earth and mars?

Speaking of misinformation and indoctrination.....

you would know - not only have you fallen for it you constantly disseminate it whenver you get the chance.

[Ghost_of_Amityville]

No foundation for "impossible claims."

Sure - snakes talk, men live inside fish, people walk on water and raise themselves from the dead every day.

To be fair, each of those examples you mentioned are Bible stories, and as Bible stories, they are the products of a collection or library of different writings and different kinds of writings. Some parts of the Bible are history, some of it is fiction, some of it is poetry, some of it is biography, some of it is communications or letters, etc. Sometimes, these different styles of writing overlap, and sometimes they don't. Just like in a modern library (a.k.a. a place you can go and check out books).

[bernee51]

To be fair, each of those examples you mentioned are Bible stories, and as Bible stories, they are the products of a collection or library of different writings and different kinds of writings. Some parts of the Bible are history, some of it is fiction, some of it is poetry, some of it is biography, some of it is communications or letters, etc. Sometimes, these different styles of writing overlap, and sometimes they don't. Just like in a modern library (a.k.a. a place you can go and check out books).

And yet people not only base life decisions on this literary hodge podge but also judge and condemn others - and have historically done so to the point of murder and genocide.

As mentioned, it is such writings, with their impossible claims, that have moved believers to fly planes into buildings or murder doctors.

[bernee51]

i just dont know what else to say to the "prove it" issues.....

i don't expect anyone to prove the impossible.

everyone must examine it for themselves and decide...

Ithas been examioned and found severely wanting.

.may God guide all here into truth

God has guided me to the truth of his non-existence.