Foundations, hopes, and contributions

[Confused]

In another thread, a poster made the following statement:

United we stand, divided we fall. I forget who actually said that, but it doesn't' really matter. Non-theists can throw logic, reasoning, and the scientific method at us all they want. Let them ridicule us because of our beliefs. Because of our faith. At least we have something. It is better than nothing. At least we stand on a foundation that is meaningful. One that offers eternal hope.

Despite the many things wrong with this one statement IMHO, the one I find the most troublesome is that this poster actually believes that a non-theistic foundations offers nothing meaningful or no hope. (sink or swim)

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?
2) What is the atheistic foundation?
3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?
4) Does Christianity offer more hope than atheistic beliefs, or only the illusion of more hope?
5) What meaningful contributions does Christian beliefs add to society that atheistic beliefs cannot and/or do not?

[achilles12604]

I'll PM you.

[achilles12604]

You know what . . . never mind. I want the entire forum to see this. . .

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?

I think this depends on what kind of foundation you are referring to. If you are referring to the foundation which supports the beliefs, then my foundation is analysis of facts. If you are referring to my the foundation for hope, then I believe that there is hope because of the amazing potential of humanity with God's spirit and direction. I think I would need to know foundation for what in order to answer this question completely.

Oh bugger achilles. Can you just answer a simple question and spare me the daily melodrama just for today. Tomorrow I will be more open-minded to the metaphysics and the ever present joy of evasion it brings out in even the most hardened theists.

I want to know of the CHRISTIAN FOUNDATION. If you set yourself so high above or below the average Christian or the average Christian Doctrine, then don't answer because you won't be representative of "Christians". There, now you have an easy out that save face. If that is not what you are looking for, then quit with the evasion tactics and answer the question. As always, we will battle on words, but put your position out first.

2) What is the atheistic foundation?

Once again it depends on what foundation you are referring to. If it is foundation for what they believe to be true, then science and observations would probably be a the top of the list. If it is their foundation for hope, then it becomes even more complicated because some atheists take the viewpoint that ultimately there is no hope because nothing we do matters as we will all eventually cease to exist. Other atheists look at events on earth as important and so their hope rests in mankind. However, I find this to be shaky hope considering mankinds track record. The twenty and twenty first centuries have seen the most war and death in recorded history. Not really a great source of hope in my opinion. I would need to know exactly what foundation you are asking about.

And once again, refer to my earlier response.

Ok then confused since things are always black and white and require no explanations at all to be able to define, what is the building made of?

(here is where you ask "What kind of building . . . .think about for a second . . . and then realize that perhaps your term "Christian foundation" was just a hair vague for a proper full reply.)

No, it wasn't vague. It was an honest question. If one has a Christian Foundation, then I ask for their view. If you have one, answer the question Achilles, if not, defer out. That simple.

What is the atheist foundation. I think atheists have given more than adequate answers thus far. It is the Christian one that has yet to have anything to it. Instead, we will play word games.

Word games huh?

You asked for our opinions of the "Christian Foundation".

I wrote . . .

analysis of facts.

Now, WHY was this not an answer you are willing to accept? What exactly is wrong with a straight forward honest answer?

Then I read ahead and saw that you were looking for hope. So I wrote this following . . .

If you are referring to my the foundation for hope, then I believe that there is hope because of the amazing potential of humanity with God's spirit and direction.

So now I have given BOTH my opinion about my Christian Foundation, AND an my opinion of the source of hope.

So please. Tell me what is wrong with a straight forward answer?

Then you simply brushed off my atheist answers. Wait . . .let me pull them out for you too.

If it is foundation for what they believe to be true, then science and observations would probably be a the top of the list.

Hmm? The atheist foundation? Maybe?

Did you even READ my posts? This is a straight forward response.

But wait. Then I cite ahead again to make things even.

If it is their foundation for hope, then it becomes even more complicated because some atheists take the viewpoint that ultimately there is no hope because nothing we do matters as we will all eventually cease to exist.

Next you ask the difference between the two. I write . . .

3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?

Hope. As I pointed out above, there isn't a whole lot of hope associated with an atheistic viewpoint.

Hmm. So what on earth is wrong with yet ANOTHER straight forward answer?

Then you ask me about the relationship between hope and faith. I give you yet ANOTHER straight forward answer. And this is what I get in response . . .

This from someone who has yet to give me a foundation that hope can even be a part of. Nice.....

What on earth is this? You didn't even cite what I wrote. You didn't point out any fallacy. You simply complained that I didn't give you something which I did, above. But perhaps I need to be like some of the other posters here and simply write one line replies.

At least if I did this, my point wouldn't be missed.

Aren't we getting good with the if's. Did you answer the question? Or raise more? In other words, unless you can prove God exists, then it offers nothing more than atheism. But if we take the view of the Christian God, then until you give me your "foundation", then it is irrelevant, no?

I will let you re-read my posts a few times. Perhaps you will finally read what I wrote . . .

Ok, I asked for this one. "No true scotsman"?

Ok and this is going straight onto the "Good responses to constantly asked Atheist questions" page.

No true scotsman vs Hitler.

If you had even bothered to look up the fallacy you would have run across this . . .

This fallacy is a form of circular argument, with an existing belief being assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent counter-examples to it. The existing belief thus becomes unfalsifiable.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/notruescotsman.html

Ok lets apply this to Hitler shall we.

Existing belief. Those who follow Jesus teachings will not commit mass murder. So let's examine the teachings of Jesus.

Any teachings which promote murder? No.

Ok then, lets examine the definition of "follow".

2. to go or come after; move behind in the same direction: Drive ahead, and I'll follow you.
3. to accept as a guide or leader; accept the authority of or give allegiance to: Many Germans followed Hitler.
4. to conform to, comply with, or act in accordance with; obey: to follow orders; to follow advice.
5. to imitate or copy; use as an exemplar: They follow the latest fads.

Ok based on this a follower of Jesus would imitate and obey his teachings. Since he teachings were not to murder this means that followers of Jesus would honor this teaching.

So now apply to Hitler. Did he murder? Yes? So if he murdered then he was not following the teachings of Jesus. If he is not following the teachings, then HOW ON GOD"S GREEN EARTH CAN ATHEISTS CONTINUE TO SAY THAT HE WAS A FOLLOWER?????????????

If he didn't FOLLOW, then how can he be a follower?


COMMON GUYS!!

This is not this hard. Anyone who cites no true scotsman regarding teachings directly against those of Jesus is obviously incorrectly applying the fallacy.

Now, HERE is a good way to apply the fallacy regarding religion.

An argument similar to this is often arises when people attempt to define religious groups. In some Christian groups, for example, there is an idea that faith is permanent, that once one becomes a Christian one cannot fall away. Apparent counter-examples to this idea, people who appear to have faith believe but subsequently lose it, are written off using the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy: they didn’t really have faith, they weren’t true Christians. The claim that faith cannot be lost is thus preserved from refutation. Given such an approach, this claim is unfalsifiable, there is no possible refutation of it.

Notice that the FIRST idea needs to be correct for the fallacy to work.

Well for you to apply the fallacy to Hitler, you must show that the first idea (Jesus taught to kill and murder) is found directly or indirectly in scripture.

CAN YOU? Go ahead . . . I am waiting . . .

Or did you apply the fallacy incorrectly just like the many non-theists and atheists here have been doing since I joined (and before)?

[Confused]

You know what . . . never mind. I want the entire forum to see this. . .

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?

I think this depends on what kind of foundation you are referring to. If you are referring to the foundation which supports the beliefs, then my foundation is analysis of facts. If you are referring to my the foundation for hope, then I believe that there is hope because of the amazing potential of humanity with God's spirit and direction. I think I would need to know foundation for what in order to answer this question completely.

Oh bugger achilles. Can you just answer a simple question and spare me the daily melodrama just for today. Tomorrow I will be more open-minded to the metaphysics and the ever present joy of evasion it brings out in even the most hardened theists.

I want to know of the CHRISTIAN FOUNDATION. If you set yourself so high above or below the average Christian or the average Christian Doctrine, then don't answer because you won't be representative of "Christians". There, now you have an easy out that save face. If that is not what you are looking for, then quit with the evasion tactics and answer the question. As always, we will battle on words, but put your position out first.

2) What is the atheistic foundation?

Once again it depends on what foundation you are referring to. If it is foundation for what they believe to be true, then science and observations would probably be a the top of the list. If it is their foundation for hope, then it becomes even more complicated because some atheists take the viewpoint that ultimately there is no hope because nothing we do matters as we will all eventually cease to exist. Other atheists look at events on earth as important and so their hope rests in mankind. However, I find this to be shaky hope considering mankinds track record. The twenty and twenty first centuries have seen the most war and death in recorded history. Not really a great source of hope in my opinion. I would need to know exactly what foundation you are asking about.

And once again, refer to my earlier response.

Ok then confused since things are always black and white and require no explanations at all to be able to define, what is the building made of?

(here is where you ask "What kind of building . . . .think about for a second . . . and then realize that perhaps your term "Christian foundation" was just a hair vague for a proper full reply.)

No, it wasn't vague. It was an honest question. If one has a Christian Foundation, then I ask for their view. If you have one, answer the question Achilles, if not, defer out. That simple.

What is the atheist foundation. I think atheists have given more than adequate answers thus far. It is the Christian one that has yet to have anything to it. Instead, we will play word games.

Word games huh?

You asked for our opinions of the "Christian Foundation".

I wrote . . .

analysis of facts.

Now, WHY was this not an answer you are willing to accept? What exactly is wrong with a straight forward honest answer?

Then I read ahead and saw that you were looking for hope. So I wrote this following . . .

If you are referring to my the foundation for hope, then I believe that there is hope because of the amazing potential of humanity with God's spirit and direction.

So now I have given BOTH my opinion about my Christian Foundation, AND an my opinion of the source of hope.

So please. Tell me what is wrong with a straight forward answer?

Then you simply brushed off my atheist answers. Wait . . .let me pull them out for you too.

If it is foundation for what they believe to be true, then science and observations would probably be a the top of the list.

Hmm? The atheist foundation? Maybe?

Did you even READ my posts? This is a straight forward response.

But wait. Then I cite ahead again to make things even.

If it is their foundation for hope, then it becomes even more complicated because some atheists take the viewpoint that ultimately there is no hope because nothing we do matters as we will all eventually cease to exist.

Next you ask the difference between the two. I write . . .

3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?

Hope. As I pointed out above, there isn't a whole lot of hope associated with an atheistic viewpoint.

Hmm. So what on earth is wrong with yet ANOTHER straight forward answer?

Then you ask me about the relationship between hope and faith. I give you yet ANOTHER straight forward answer. And this is what I get in response . . .

This from someone who has yet to give me a foundation that hope can even be a part of. Nice.....

What on earth is this? You didn't even cite what I wrote. You didn't point out any fallacy. You simply complained that I didn't give you something which I did, above. But perhaps I need to be like some of the other posters here and simply write one line replies.

At least if I did this, my point wouldn't be missed.

Aren't we getting good with the if's. Did you answer the question? Or raise more? In other words, unless you can prove God exists, then it offers nothing more than atheism. But if we take the view of the Christian God, then until you give me your "foundation", then it is irrelevant, no?

I will let you re-read my posts a few times. Perhaps you will finally read what I wrote . . .

Ok, I asked for this one. "No true scotsman"?

Ok and this is going straight onto the "Good responses to constantly asked Atheist questions" page.

No true scotsman vs Hitler.

If you had even bothered to look up the fallacy you would have run across this . . .

This fallacy is a form of circular argument, with an existing belief being assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent counter-examples to it. The existing belief thus becomes unfalsifiable.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/notruescotsman.html

Ok lets apply this to Hitler shall we.

Existing belief. Those who follow Jesus teachings will not commit mass murder. So let's examine the teachings of Jesus.

Any teachings which promote murder? No.

Ok then, lets examine the definition of "follow".

2. to go or come after; move behind in the same direction: Drive ahead, and I'll follow you.
3. to accept as a guide or leader; accept the authority of or give allegiance to: Many Germans followed Hitler.
4. to conform to, comply with, or act in accordance with; obey: to follow orders; to follow advice.
5. to imitate or copy; use as an exemplar: They follow the latest fads.

Ok based on this a follower of Jesus would imitate and obey his teachings. Since he teachings were not to murder this means that followers of Jesus would honor this teaching.

So now apply to Hitler. Did he murder? Yes? So if he murdered then he was not following the teachings of Jesus. If he is not following the teachings, then HOW ON GOD"S GREEN EARTH CAN ATHEISTS CONTINUE TO SAY THAT HE WAS A FOLLOWER?????????????

If he didn't FOLLOW, then how can he be a follower?


COMMON GUYS!!

This is not this hard. Anyone who cites no true scotsman regarding teachings directly against those of Jesus is obviously incorrectly applying the fallacy.

Now, HERE is a good way to apply the fallacy regarding religion.

An argument similar to this is often arises when people attempt to define religious groups. In some Christian groups, for example, there is an idea that faith is permanent, that once one becomes a Christian one cannot fall away. Apparent counter-examples to this idea, people who appear to have faith believe but subsequently lose it, are written off using the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy: they didn’t really have faith, they weren’t true Christians. The claim that faith cannot be lost is thus preserved from refutation. Given such an approach, this claim is unfalsifiable, there is no possible refutation of it.

Notice that the FIRST idea needs to be correct for the fallacy to work.

Well for you to apply the fallacy to Hitler, you must show that the first idea (Jesus taught to kill and murder) is found directly or indirectly in scripture.

CAN YOU? Go ahead . . . I am waiting . . .

Or did you apply the fallacy incorrectly just like the many non-theists and atheists here have been doing since I joined (and before)?

Allow the entire forum to see this. Sure. It has yet to answer anything. And no, I applied the No True Scotsman quite accurately when you ask me to say the churches position is their "True" position etc...... In this case, you could substitute the no "True Christian" or catholic. It would sound exactly as you have tried to avoid.

Go back to the original question Achilles and maybe we will make progress. Otherwise, keep making your blanket assumptions so the "entire forum" can see it, but you still evade answering the questions.

[achilles12604]

Ok confused. I shall simply start a new thread in general chat about the scotsman fallacy.

Now, how about the answers I gave which I then pulled out. What is wrong with those straight forward answers? You skipped ALL of them in your last post and focus on the Scotsman.

[Confused]

I am going to attempt to approach this without attacking you achilles. My apologies for doing so. I would ask we start from the beginning and see where I have strayed.

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?

I think this depends on what kind of foundation you are referring to. If you are referring to the foundation which supports the beliefs, then my foundation is analysis of facts. If you are referring to my the foundation for hope, then I believe that there is hope because of the amazing potential of humanity with God's spirit and direction. I think I would need to know foundation for what in order to answer this question completely.

Ok, I will come back to the beginning since my sarcasm was bad originally. I am referring to the individual foundation that each individual considers their foundation. Nothing more nothing less. It is your interpretation of your foundation as a Christian. What makes you Christian. What holds your beliefs. What separates it from an Islamic foundation. What makes your Christian foundation?

2) What is the atheistic foundation?

Once again it depends on what foundation you are referring to. If it is foundation for what they believe to be true, then science and observations would probably be a the top of the list. If it is their foundation for hope, then it becomes even more complicated because some atheists take the viewpoint that ultimately there is no hope because nothing we do matters as we will all eventually cease to exist. Other atheists look at events on earth as important and so their hope rests in mankind. However, I find this to be shaky hope considering mankinds track record. The twenty and twenty first centuries have seen the most war and death in recorded history. Not really a great source of hope in my opinion. I would need to know exactly what foundation you are asking about.

Since you aren't atheist, I don't expect you to answer this.

3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?

Hope. As I pointed out above, there isn't a whole lot of hope associated with an atheistic viewpoint.

Why do you say there is no hope with the atheistic foundation?

[Confused]

Ok confused. I shall simply start a new thread in general chat about the scotsman fallacy.

Now, how about the answers I gave which I then pulled out. What is wrong with those straight forward answers? You skipped ALL of them in your last post and focus on the Scotsman.

I am going to have to sort through them. You have my apologies for my approach and though you know the underlying reason, it isn't an excuse to be so rude.

I will go to the No True Scotsman fallacy thread to see if I have indeed misapplied it.

[achilles12604]

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?

I think this depends on what kind of foundation you are referring to. If you are referring to the foundation which supports the beliefs, then my foundation is analysis of facts. If you are referring to my the foundation for hope, then I believe that there is hope because of the amazing potential of humanity with God's spirit and direction. I think I would need to know foundation for what in order to answer this question completely.

Ok, I will come back to the beginning since my sarcasm was bad originally. I am referring to the individual foundation that each individual considers their foundation. Nothing more nothing less. It is your interpretation of your foundation as a Christian. What makes you Christian. What holds your beliefs. What separates it from an Islamic foundation. What makes your Christian foundation?

First off, analysis of the facts. Second, logical reasoning when posed with questions. Third, personal experiences. Fourth, my preconceptions.

3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?

Hope. As I pointed out above, there isn't a whole lot of hope associated with an atheistic viewpoint.

Why do you say there is no hope with the atheistic foundation?

If it is their foundation for hope, then it becomes even more complicated because some atheists take the viewpoint that ultimately there is no hope because nothing we do matters as we will all eventually cease to exist. Other atheists look at events on earth as important and so their hope rests in mankind.

Atheism says nothing about hope in the same way it says nothing about despair. It is hope/despair neutral. True - if you need a sense of hope then don’t go seeking atheism. Atheism is not a psychological prop to self esteem, and fills no gaps in anyone’s life.

I think Furrowed Brow understood my point quite well. While religion offers solace and hope to those who believe, atheism can not. It is not anti-hope. It is simply not applicable to hope.

[Confused]

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?

I think this depends on what kind of foundation you are referring to. If you are referring to the foundation which supports the beliefs, then my foundation is analysis of facts. If you are referring to my the foundation for hope, then I believe that there is hope because of the amazing potential of humanity with God's spirit and direction. I think I would need to know foundation for what in order to answer this question completely.

Ok, I will come back to the beginning since my sarcasm was bad originally. I am referring to the individual foundation that each individual considers their foundation. Nothing more nothing less. It is your interpretation of your foundation as a Christian. What makes you Christian. What holds your beliefs. What separates it from an Islamic foundation. What makes your Christian foundation?

First off, analysis of the facts. Second, logical reasoning when posed with questions. Third, personal experiences. Fourth, my preconceptions.

But this doesn't tell me what a Christian foundation is. Only how you came to what you consider yours to incorporate.

3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?

Hope. As I pointed out above, there isn't a whole lot of hope associated with an atheistic viewpoint.

Why do you say there is no hope with the atheistic foundation?

If it is their foundation for hope, then it becomes even more complicated because some atheists take the viewpoint that ultimately there is no hope because nothing we do matters as we will all eventually cease to exist. Other atheists look at events on earth as important and so their hope rests in mankind.

Atheism says nothing about hope in the same way it says nothing about despair. It is hope/despair neutral. True - if you need a sense of hope then don’t go seeking atheism. Atheism is not a psychological prop to self esteem, and fills no gaps in anyone’s life.

I think Furrowed Brow understood my point quite well. While religion offers solace and hope to those who believe, atheism can not. It is not anti-hope. It is simply not applicable to hope.

I may not agree here. The foundation of atheism, if applied in terms of Humanism, offers each person the hope of accomplishing things on their own merit. Taking credit for what they have done and accepting the consequences of such as well. It offers a hope that one is not born with a strike immediately against them. They are born with a clean slate. One that allows them the possibility of accomplishing many things on their own merit, not because some deity has some grand plan for them. This grand plan, if anything, limits the hopes of the individual by placing a limit on what they can achieve based on whatever Gods purpose may be for them.

[achilles12604]

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?

I think this depends on what kind of foundation you are referring to. If you are referring to the foundation which supports the beliefs, then my foundation is analysis of facts. If you are referring to my the foundation for hope, then I believe that there is hope because of the amazing potential of humanity with God's spirit and direction. I think I would need to know foundation for what in order to answer this question completely.

Ok, I will come back to the beginning since my sarcasm was bad originally. I am referring to the individual foundation that each individual considers their foundation. Nothing more nothing less. It is your interpretation of your foundation as a Christian. What makes you Christian. What holds your beliefs. What separates it from an Islamic foundation. What makes your Christian foundation?

First off, analysis of the facts. Second, logical reasoning when posed with questions. Third, personal experiences. Fourth, my preconceptions.

But this doesn't tell me what a Christian foundation is. Only how you came to what you consider yours to incorporate.

Ah. I think I may understand. You are not asking what I base my faith ON but what my faith IS?

Is this correct?

3) What foundation does Christianity offer that atheism can not match with beliefs such as humanism?

Hope. As I pointed out above, there isn't a whole lot of hope associated with an atheistic viewpoint.

Why do you say there is no hope with the atheistic foundation?

If it is their foundation for hope, then it becomes even more complicated because some atheists take the viewpoint that ultimately there is no hope because nothing we do matters as we will all eventually cease to exist. Other atheists look at events on earth as important and so their hope rests in mankind.

Atheism says nothing about hope in the same way it says nothing about despair. It is hope/despair neutral. True - if you need a sense of hope then don’t go seeking atheism. Atheism is not a psychological prop to self esteem, and fills no gaps in anyone’s life.

I think Furrowed Brow understood my point quite well. While religion offers solace and hope to those who believe, atheism can not. It is not anti-hope. It is simply not applicable to hope.

I may not agree here. The foundation of atheism, if applied in terms of Humanism, offers each person the hope of accomplishing things on their own merit. Taking credit for what they have done and accepting the consequences of such as well. It offers a hope that one is not born with a strike immediately against them. They are born with a clean slate. One that allows them the possibility of accomplishing many things on their own merit, not because some deity has some grand plan for them. This grand plan, if anything, limits the hopes of the individual by placing a limit on what they can achieve based on whatever Gods purpose may be for them.[/quote]

Actually I think you have hit on something here that warrants its own thread.

I do not equate atheism with humanism. They are not the same thing. Humanism does allow for hope to some degree. And in my original reply, I mention this, though not directly.

I shall start another thread.

In the meantime, understand that when I say atheism does not offer hope I seriously mean ATHEISM. Not any other philosophy commonly associated with atheism.

[Confused]

So up for debate:
1) What is the Christian foundation?

I think this depends on what kind of foundation you are referring to. If you are referring to the foundation which supports the beliefs, then my foundation is analysis of facts. If you are referring to my the foundation for hope, then I believe that there is hope because of the amazing potential of humanity with God's spirit and direction. I think I would need to know foundation for what in order to answer this question completely.

Ok, I will come back to the beginning since my sarcasm was bad originally. I am referring to the individual foundation that each individual considers their foundation. Nothing more nothing less. It is your interpretation of your foundation as a Christian. What makes you Christian. What holds your beliefs. What separates it from an Islamic foundation. What makes your Christian foundation?

First off, analysis of the facts. Second, logical reasoning when posed with questions. Third, personal experiences. Fourth, my preconceptions.

But this doesn't tell me what a Christian foundation is. Only how you came to what you consider yours to incorporate.

Ah. I think I may understand. You are not asking what I base my faith ON but what my faith IS?

Is this correct?

Yes. Finally, I worded it right.

In the meantime, understand that when I say atheism does not offer hope I seriously mean ATHEISM. Not any other philosophy commonly associated with atheism.

Duly noted.