How can I know that there is a God?

[McCulloch]

I've been debating many issues here for some time now, but the single most important one, in my opinion is this. There are those who claim that they know that God exists. How does one come to that knowledge? Do they really know that God exists or do they simply suppose or assume that God exists?

If your answer is that I cannot know, then you are as much of an agnostic as I am. If you answer is that some holy book says so, then you have only pushed the question onto that book. I also have what I think is the second most important question.

How can I know that there is a God?

[Confused]

Yes, I think/believe/hope there is a God. But you and I both know that's all there is to that. Are you leading into something ?

Sorry to disappoint. There is no hidden agenda. Some Christians claim that they are sure that God exists. I want to know why. As an agnostic, don't you?

Well, I think I know God exists as much as anyone CAN know. This is included in my first response. But i think what you're looking for will go on and on.....
I know God exists because of the reasons I listed:
Communication with Him.

Answered prayers that cannot (IMO) be counted as coincidence any longer.

Validation of both communication and prayer through many, sometimes daily situations. These situations compound themselves to justify my trust/belief/faith.

The change within me that includes levels of compassion and love that are deeper than I am capable of on my own.

But, as you know, I cannot prove any of this to you.
What caused you to stop believing in Him?

These effects you list can be caused by just the belief. The actual existence of a god is not necessary. You greatly underestimate the deception the human mind is capable of. It can rationalize/justify almost any effect or action.

Not so. The list I gave cannot totally be caused by merely the belief of an imaginary being.

I don't underestimate the human mind at all. It can just as easily deny any effect or action. The human mind is not the only thing relevent . There are other aspects to humanity.

Take away the human consciousness and what other aspect to humanity is relevant. Without the human mind, would we really be able to discern anything? Wouldn't we just be relying on instinct? The same as any animal would? If not, then isn't the human mind a crucial element to understanding our belief? If so, then can't any animal know the same existence of God? Would they be any more capable to producing evidence of His existence to their future generations 2000+ years post event?

[McCulloch]

I made a firm decision, I said to myself, "If 'wrong' and 'right' exist, then God must exist." This is how I know God exists.

That's quite a leap! How do you get God exists from morality?

I decided to find out what God says is wrong and what He says is right. Fortunately, the Bible was the first place I looked. After a lot of prayer and seeking confirmations, my confidence has grown. The Bible has made a tremendous amount of sense. I no longer question what is right and what is wrong. I know it.

The one who has stopped searching will never find truth. How do you know that the Bible is from God?

[McCulloch]

just use your head and think about it
ask your self these questions

- if there is a god ,, why does he created us ??
- who created the first person?
- who created the first animal?(chimpanzees , lions ...etc)
- who created the first jinn ?
- who created the sun and the moon and the sky ??
somebody created these things but who is that !! ?? and why he did that !! ??

so when you ask these questions your self go and read quraan to know the answer

What day did you first become an adult?
Who was the first person to speak French? French is a language which evolved from Latin.
Who made the man in the moon?

[McCulloch]

I know God exists because of the reasons I listed:
Communication with Him.

Is this true communication? How do you know that he is listening? Does he communicate back to you? How do you know?

Answered prayers that cannot (IMO) be counted as coincidence any longer.

That is your opinion. Any statistical tests of that hypothesis have proven otherwise.

The change within me that includes levels of compassion and love that are deeper than I am capable of on my own.

No, you have been capable of those levels of compassion and love all along.

But, as you know, I cannot prove any of this to you.
What caused you to stop believing in Him?

I took a serious look for why I should believe. I found that deep down, the reasons for belief in God are shallow.

[justifyothers]

It's not just the effect of imagination. It's the ability to find relationships if they are desired or fit existing ideas. What a person wants or needs is justified by the ability to reason. Emotion comes first, followed and supported by the rational processes. I doubt that few became believers without first arriving at an emotional point of needing to believe.

I am aware of the difference between imagination and intuitive reasoning. People find God through many different means and for many different reasons. I would guess no two are exactly alike - just as no two people are exactly alike. I had no 'need' for a relationship with God. I was just open to the possibility and actually explored it instead of denying it.

A "relationship" (lack of a better term) with God happens over time, and is accomplished by acts on His part, whether personally or somehow arranged, that validate the beginnings of the 'relationship', and by a willingness on our part to SEE these acts and acknowledge them.

Those doubts, and questions with no answers just nibble away at reason until satisfying results arrive.

Religions may fear 'reason', but God exists along with reason.

People use the "why" word until they get an answer they like, then stop asking.

Oh, I think some people check out all the options available first.

Be suspicious of answers that make you feel good.

I am assuming here that you are referring to my acceptance of religious answers. This does not apply to me, but for the record, it's OK to get some truthful answers that CAN make you feel good. Do you think that all truth should make one uncomfortable?

Which item on your list do you think cannot be manipulated by need?

Validation of my trust in Him cannot be manipulated by any means. I do not have a 'needy' relationship with God. I acknowledge Him and am grateful to Him. But, I do not ask things for myself. I pray for others.

Prayer over time has shown me that God is there. Sometimes in small ways, sometimes in mighty ways. As I mentioned earlier, I did consider some of these coincidence in the beginning, but over time, reason outweighs the odds of coincidence by far.

Also, since my personal experience of God did not originate out of 'need', I'm pretty sure this wouldn't now be manipulated by 'need'. No reason for me to regress. Having said that, there are times when I am ever so grateful that He is here!

[justifyothers]

I know God exists because of the reasons I listed:
Communication with Him.

Is this true communication? How do you know that he is listening? Does he communicate back to you? How do you know?

I hope He is listening because I do an awful lot of talking. (I'm sure people just think I'm wearing a blue tooth device)
I do not hear an audible voice, but rather, I see answers around me. That is all I have. I only 'know' in ways that are within - not tangible. But, as I said, it is all based on building up of this 'relationship' over time and trust that is developed.

Answered prayers that cannot (IMO) be counted as coincidence any longer.

That is your opinion. Any statistical tests of that hypothesis have proven otherwise.

It may be a possibility that God arranges the coincidence. The results of testing prayer will have different outcomes depending on who is funding the test. Also, I think these are a ridiculous waste of money and time. Honest prayer comes from within, not from a paid group instructed to begin prayer on command. It is heartfelt, stemming from real love or compassion.

The change within me that includes levels of compassion and love that are deeper than I am capable of on my own.

No, you have been capable of those levels of compassion and love all along.

What do you base this statement on?

But, as you know, I cannot prove any of this to you.
What caused you to stop believing in Him?

I took a serious look for why I should believe. I found that deep down, the reasons for belief in God are shallow.

Well, maybe you should have simply discarded those reasons. Why do we feel we must have 'reasons' to believe? Maybe He just IS.

[McCulloch]

I am aware of the difference between imagination and intuitive reasoning.

How can you be sure that whatever you count as evidence is not just your imagination?

I hope He is listening because I do an awful lot of talking.

But you really don't know.

I do not hear an audible voice, but rather, I see answers around me.

No, you see things happening or not happening. You interpret those events as the acts of God.

It may be a possibility that God arranges the coincidence. The results of testing prayer will have different outcomes depending on who is funding the test. Also, I think these are a ridiculous waste of money and time. Honest prayer comes from within, not from a paid group instructed to begin prayer on command. It is heartfelt, stemming from real love or compassion.

Then answered prayer is a completely non-falsifiable phenomenon. Therefore, it cannot be used as evidence to believe or disbelieve.

No, you have been capable of those levels of compassion and love all along.

What do you base this statement on?

OK. I have jumped to a conclusion. I have seen people with and without various religions rise to levels of compassion and love in the field of working with developmentally challenged young adults. I have seen no evidence that those levels require supernatural assistance.

Maybe He just IS.

God as an axiom or assumption. That has been tried before. But I have discovered that there is such a thing as non-euclidean geometry. I have no need of the God hypothesis.

So we have come full circle back to the OP.

Do they really know that God exists or do they simply suppose or assume that God exists?

[rusty]

McCulloch wrote:

rusty wrote:
I made a firm decision, I said to myself, "If 'wrong' and 'right' exist, then God must exist." This is how I know God exists.

That's quite a leap! How do you get God exists from morality?

Please see my answer below to MrWhy.

MrWhy wrote:
Up to this point there is no way to know there is a god. Anything as prevalent and profound as a creator god would be obvious to everyone. It would be as obvious as a tree or a rock. If you line up a million people and ask them to observe a rock, almost 100% will say it exist and is obvious. Nothing like that would occur if you asked the same question about a god. The "he's there if you look" is a clear piece of rationalization. It makes no sense something that significant is known to many, but completely missed by a large number. There's a huge hunk of inconsistency there. Somethings wrong with this scene.

The most important question involves scripture claims that a god exist. That question is: What does any scripture contain that required input from a god? God revealed scripture is the only proposed evidence that a god exists, and what that god expects from it's servants. To ask "How can I know that there is a god?" suggest you've partially bought into the idea. Why do we even consider an idea so profound yet lacking any evidence? The issue starts with human composed scripture/stories about a god. It should go no further until there's clear substantial evidence that's obvious to everyone.

Up to this point there is an obvious way to know there is a God. Anything as prevalent and profound as a creator God would be obvious to everyone. The existance of "right" and "wrong" is as obvious as a tree or a rock. If you line up a million people and ask them to observe a rock, almost 100% will say it exists and it is obvious. The same would occur if you asked the same question about "right and wrong," they would say it exists. The "he's there if you look" is a clear piece of reasoning. It makes no sense something that significant and known to so many would be completely missed by a large number of people. There's a huge hunk of inconsistency there. Something's wrong with this scene. What is wrong is; sinful man denies the existance of sin(wrong), and his own sinfulness(wrongfulness).

The most important question involving "scripture claims" that a God exists is: What does any scripture contain that required input from a God? The answer is, "It contains God's idea of what is 'right' and 'wrong' which He had in place at the beginning, before man chose to disobey God." God revealed scripture is the only proposed evidence that a true definition of "right and wrong" exists, and what that God expects from His servants. To ask "How can I know that there is a God?" suggests you've partially bought into the idea, which is a healthy curiosity on your part. Why do we consider the idea of God so profound and doubtful, yet, not lacking any evidence of the existance of "right and wrong?"? The issue starts with God inspired scripture/stories about a loving Creator who wishes to keep Himself known to His creation. It should shouted from the rooftops until there's clear and substantial acceptance of God's definition of "right and wrong," which is obvious to everyone.

All the earth and Mankind would benefit from righteousness and loving your neighbor. What is so hard to understand about that?
rusty

[LittlePig]

rusty

Due to the course that my life took from High School on, I was exposed to a tremendous amount of "wrong." I reached a point where I could no longer accept, justify, or understand "wrong." I made a firm decision, I said to myself, "If 'wrong' and 'right' exist, then God must exist." This is how I know God exists. I decided to find out what God says is wrong and what He says is right. Fortunately, the Bible was the first place I looked. After a lot of prayer and seeking confirmations, my confidence has grown. The Bible has made a tremendous amount of sense. I no longer question what is right and what is wrong. I know it.

Although your perception of or feelings about the 'reality' of right and wrong may have led you to your current Faith, the fact that people make personal value judgments on events and behaviors does not mean that god/s exist. You can be an atheist and still believe in right and wrong.

justifyothers

I know God exists because of the reasons I listed:
Communication with Him.

Answered prayers that cannot (IMO) be counted as coincidence any longer.

Validation of both communication and prayer through many, sometimes daily situations. These situations compound themselves to justify my trust/belief/faith.

The change within me that includes levels of compassion and love that are deeper than I am capable of on my own.

I don't see anything here that cannot be explained by human wishfulness, and since most of these seem to be experienced by those who wish the idea of god/s to be true, it makes sense to go with that explanation without more compelling evidence. Not long ago there was a news story of a woman finding an apparition of the Virgin Mary burned into her grilled cheese sandwhich. That may sound silly to most here, but that is what our minds do. They often find what we seek if we aren't careful. That is the basis of the Rorschach test and most of the Arts.

For example, people are easily convinced or shocked by the recognition of coincidence. But coincidence is only as rare as we make it. Each event that occurs in this world can be related to some other by a creative mind. Sometimes what you wish for or pray for happens, and you are shocked. But so many times it does not happen, and you take no notice except when it results in some later 'good' that would legitimate it as the will of god/s. This is magical thinking and not to be confused with a sound argument based in probability.

Communication with god/s is a very interesting psychological situation. It is always conceivable that you are truly receiving those kinds of communications, and that would be good evidence for something on the other end. But that is only a subjective confirmation of the claim that god/s (or something) exist and could not be used to convince anyone who didn't trust you completely. It is apparently not an evidence available for anyone else to consider. Most people I know who speak of affirming communications with god/s usually refer to some emotional experience that occurs during prayer or meditation rather than a comprehensible message.

justifyothers

Prayer over time has shown me that God is there. Sometimes in small ways, sometimes in mighty ways. As I mentioned earlier, I did consider some of these coincidence in the beginning, but over time, reason outweighs the odds of coincidence by far.

I've heard similar comments before. What method did you use to separate coincidence from probabilistic certainty? How many answered prayers = unexplainable by random occurrence? I think when people start looking for answered prayers, regardless of the causative deity, they find them. The caveat that god/s do not always bend their will to the supplicant's will typically explains the 'unanswered' prayers. This kind of mind game is not a convincing appeal to probability. Now if you were allowed to 'put God to the test' so-to-speak and do some rigorous measuring of answered-unanswered prayers broken down by Faith-type, then we might get somewhere.

justifyothers

Well, maybe you should have simply discarded those reasons. Why do we feel we must have 'reasons' to believe? Maybe He just IS.

Whether god/s exist or not is independent of our belief. Whether we truly believe or simply wish that god/s exist is contingent upon evidence.

[justifyothers]

Take away the human consciousness and what other aspect to humanity is relevant. Without the human mind, would we really be able to discern anything? Wouldn't we just be relying on instinct? The same as any animal would? If not, then isn't the human mind a crucial element to understanding our belief? If so, then can't any animal know the same existence of God? Would they be any more capable to producing evidence of His existence to their future generations 2000+ years post event?

Our minds are crucial for everything we do. But is this the only way we differ from animals? Our minds afford us the reality of deeper feeling, deeper loving, and a greater sense of conciousness. But these things are also valid and important in life. We cannot reduce ourselves to brain power only.

Maybe animals do understand God in a way - I don't know.......I'll ask my dogs what they've got and I'll get it for us:-)