Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
There are no (Christians present) in actual point of fact. None that will support the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus as a point of "logic, reason and critical thinking." Unless there happens to be a Christian newbe present that I am unaware of who wishes to tackle the job. None of the Christian regulars here will defend the story of the resurrection beyond a "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it," defense.
SelectThis! wrote:
Not so. None is all. I would defend it gladly. Logic and reason reveals what is most evident and what the Bible reveals is absolutely most evident. Start the thread up if you dare. Bring your best arguments.
Iam wrote:
The storytellers who produced thousands of years before the Torah was written. Surely you are aware that oral history and story's and legends existed well before mankind developed writing and therefor reading?
The storytellers who came up with a reason for the lights in the sky, for the animals they saw, for the land they saw. For their suffering and most importantly their DEATH.
These are the storytellers you believe, because someone put something in a book about these stories that said this is the word of the god that this tells you about. Here is god and here is his word. Without the one you can't have the other.
Ah, I see. And here I was thinking that I don't believe in the bible, but apparently you know me best. Thanks for the clarification. I guess I'll start going to church now, thanks.
You ask a question and when I reply honestly, you come back with sarcastic ridicule? Where do you get OFF?
Iam wrote:
You ask a question and when I reply honestly, you come back with sarcastic ridicule? Where do you get OFF?
O.k., I'll tell you what, I apologize for the sarcasm, but it would indeed be a mistake to assume that you know what all religious and spiritual people believe. If you want to clarify what my beliefs are so that you can debate them, you should ask me what they are first, o.k.?
Iam wrote:
You ask a question and when I reply honestly, you come back with sarcastic ridicule? Where do you get OFF?
O.k., I'll tell you what, I apologize for the sarcasm, but it would indeed be a mistake to assume that you know what all religious and spiritual people believe. If you want to clarify what my beliefs are so that you can debate them, you should ask me what they are first, o.k.?
Fair enough. TRUCE?
Do you believe that the "bible" is the word of god?
Do you not believe that the Koran is the word of god?
Do you believe that the Torah is the word of god. (Pentateuch I think)
Nickman wrote:
It is one thing to keep cells alive by purely natural means, and its another to keep them alive by unexplainable magic or supernatural abilities. Once a cell dies we cannot bring it back. So using the same logic, why would we assume a god can?
You said that God works through magic or supernatural abilities, not me, and it doesn't matter if you assume that God can or not, I'm simply talking about what might be possible and what might not.
The automatic assumption that people make when something is beyond their comprehension is to call it magic. I personally believe that God works through perfectly natural means, but he has the vast knowledge to perform feats far greater than what science is currently capable. So back to my original point, if science can perform it on some small level now, why shouldn't I believe that scientists might have the ability, far in the future, to perform much greater feats. And if I believe that science might be capable of performing those things in the future, then the point for me is, why should I assume that God couldn't just because atheists find it hard to believe?
What evidence do you have that god can do what you say? Belief doesn't equal truth. In fact, belief is more wrong than right. If you could propose a model example of how an invisible source could do what you say then you would have a great nobel prize winning idea. Until you can pose a model of how it is possible for a non-corpreal entity to suspend decomposition, then you have only a belief. Your belief does not have any merit. It is just fanciful thinking. I like your thinking because it would be awesome, but I cannot just jump on board with you because of reality.
Iam wrote:
Fair enough. TRUCE?
Do you believe that the "bible" is the word of god?
Do you not believe that the Koran is the word of god?
Do you believe that the Torah is the word of god. (Pentateuch I think)
I do not believe that any of those are the word of God. I believe that they are books written by people that are no better than you or I. I believe that those people may have written some amazing truths and may have been partially inspired by God on certain things (but not all), but I do not believe that the God that I know and love intentionally rises one man above another because too many people are spiteful and controlling or easily become drunk with power and would do horrible things in his name (as has already been proven throughout history). All men are equal in the eyes of the God that guides me in life. Love is the only rule and all other principals that he would have us learn come down to this one and only rule. If a scripture or passage in any book succeeds in encouraging or increasing love, then I believe in it or would like to.
(Disclaimer: Neptune1bond does not claim in any way, shape, or form to be perfect, the embodiment of love, or the representative of God in any way. Neptune1bond also does not share his beliefs in an attempt to convert anyone. The God in which neptune1bond believes accepts all good and loving people into his arms regardless of your belief or non-belief. Neptune1bond does not believe that faith is the purpose of this life or this world.)
Iam wrote:
Fair enough. TRUCE?
Do you believe that the "bible" is the word of god?
Do you not believe that the Koran is the word of god?
Do you believe that the Torah is the word of god. (Pentateuch I think)
I do not believe that any of those are the word of God. I believe that they are books written by people that are no better than you or I. I believe that those people may have written some amazing truths and may have been partially inspired by God on certain things (but not all), but I do not believe that the God that I know and love intentionally rises one man above another because too many people are spiteful and controlling or easily become drunk with power and would do horrible things in his name (as has already been proven throughout history). All men are equal in the eyes of the God that guides me in life. Love is the only rule and all other principals that he would have us learn come down to this one and only rule. If a scripture or passage in any book succeeds in encouraging or increasing love, then I believe in it or would like to.
(Disclaimer: Neptune1bond does not claim in any way, shape, or form to be perfect, the embodiment of love, or the representative of God in any way. Neptune1bond also does not share his beliefs in an attempt to convert anyone. The God in which neptune1bond believes accepts all good and loving people into his arms regardless of your belief or non-belief. Neptune1bond does not believe that faith is the purpose of this life or this world.)
You don't need a god to live the same way and have the same mentality that you speak of. You can do the same without a god.
Iam wrote:
Fair enough. TRUCE?
Do you believe that the "bible" is the word of god?
Do you not believe that the Koran is the word of god?
Do you believe that the Torah is the word of god. (Pentateuch I think)
I do not believe that any of those are the word of God. I believe that they are books written by people that are no better than you or I. I believe that those people may have written some amazing truths and may have been partially inspired by God on certain things (but not all), but I do not believe that the God that I know and love intentionally rises one man above another because too many people are spiteful and controlling or easily become drunk with power and would do horrible things in his name (as has already been proven throughout history). All men are equal in the eyes of the God that guides me in life. Love is the only rule and all other principals that he would have us learn come down to this one and only rule. If a scripture or passage in any book succeeds in encouraging or increasing love, then I believe in it or would like to.
(Disclaimer: Neptune1bond does not claim in any way, shape, or form to be perfect, the embodiment of love, or the representative of God in any way. Neptune1bond also does not share his beliefs in an attempt to convert anyone. The God in which neptune1bond believes accepts all good and loving people into his arms regardless of your belief or non-belief. Neptune1bond does not believe that faith is the purpose of this life or this world.)
The only thing I can say is, I'm on your side and yet I don't believe in any god. Maybe more of us need this attitude.
Nickman wrote:
What evidence do you have that god can do what you say? Belief doesn't equal truth. In fact, belief is more wrong than right. If you could propose a model example of how an invisible source could do what you say then you would have a great nobel prize winning idea. Until you can pose a model of how it is possible for a non-corpreal entity to suspend decomposition, then you have only a belief. Your belief does not have any merit. It is just fanciful thinking. I like your thinking because it would be awesome, but I cannot just jump on board with you because of reality.
The only evidence I have of what God can do is from my own life and therefor wouldn't really mean anything to you or anyone else for that matter (and I would prefer not to put the things I hold sacred up on a website just for people to ridicule and belittle anyways, especially since it really won't make any difference in the debate). Also, since God is hardly my puppet to do as I please, there is no way I can prove it to you.
As far as ideas of how I would imagine that such a thing might be done with my limited understanding? Let's take the article that I cited that proved that a dog can be resuscitated from clinical death without inducing any type of brain damage. Here is the article again:
So let's say that I, in my not all-knowing state, were God and, having perfected these technologies, create a tiny wormhole to insert a catheter into Jesus' veins that is hooked to a machine built to circulate and cool Jesus' blood enough to cause the cerebral hypothermia mentioned in the dog study. Jesus is taken down from the cross and placed in the tomb where he is transported, via wormhole, to my laboratory where he is revived and Jesus and I share fond greetings. I project my two favorite buds dressed in fancy high-quality angel outfits via hologram to appear at the tomb flying through the air saying,"Jesus is not here! Look, see, and be bewildered" in nice old bible-speak. I put Jesus back later to meet with people and say,"here I am and look what those dastardly men did to me." Badda-bing badda-boom, you've got yourself a nice resurrection and no one from that time period would be the wiser.
Nickman wrote:
You don't need a god to live the same way and have the same mentality that you speak of. You can do the same without a god.
I think the actual truth is that you don't need a God to live that way. Unfortunately I do, it's a failing that I have, for you see, it was God that led me to it and it is God that keeps teaching me about it. I need him for other things too, but we won't go into that because we don't have the time and most people here probably don't have the interest.
Iam wrote:
Fair enough. TRUCE?
Do you believe that the "bible" is the word of god?
Do you not believe that the Koran is the word of god?
Do you believe that the Torah is the word of god. (Pentateuch I think)
I do not believe that any of those are the word of God. I believe that they are books written by people that are no better than you or I. I believe that those people may have written some amazing truths and may have been partially inspired by God on certain things (but not all), but I do not believe that the God that I know and love intentionally rises one man above another because too many people are spiteful and controlling or easily become drunk with power and would do horrible things in his name (as has already been proven throughout history). All men are equal in the eyes of the God that guides me in life. Love is the only rule and all other principals that he would have us learn come down to this one and only rule. If a scripture or passage in any book succeeds in encouraging or increasing love, then I believe in it or would like to.
(Disclaimer: Neptune1bond does not claim in any way, shape, or form to be perfect, the embodiment of love, or the representative of God in any way. Neptune1bond also does not share his beliefs in an attempt to convert anyone. The God in which neptune1bond believes accepts all good and loving people into his arms regardless of your belief or non-belief. Neptune1bond does not believe that faith is the purpose of this life or this world.)
The only thing I can say is, I'm on your side and yet I don't believe in any god. Maybe more of us need this attitude.
