A question for christians

[thenormalyears]

You believe in a God that is all knowing, he knows the past, present and the future, correct?

[Easyrider]

You have demosntrated that although later on, the gospels say that Jesus was God before the resurrection, there was an evolution of attitude between paul, continuing in mark, and then ending up in Matthew and Luke. The passages you have quotes show that very distinctly.

That's a real nice theory you have there, Goat. Problem is you can't back it up with anything other than conjecture. You guys sure do love your far out conspiracy theories!

[KnowJah]

If God knows all, then does he know as a fact what I will do tomorrow? Not what I *MIGHT* do, but what I absolutely, without fail, will do? If so, then how can I have free will? If not, then how can he be God?

God knows the future but he doesnt look into for every single individual. He only does it if it is part of his WILL. For example if he uses someone to accomplish his will he knows what will happen to him. He knows of course the outcome to this system of things and the world as a whole.

For example lets use the weather. If we were to go somewhere, we could check the weather would be or we could just go with the flow.

God is very just and he watches what every one of us do. He knows the outcome to some of our descisions but he doesnt see our outcome as to whether we gain eternal life or not.

The bible shows that God makes selective and discretionary use of that ability to foreknowm with due regard for the free will with which he has endowed humans.

[Goat]

You have demosntrated that although later on, the gospels say that Jesus was God before the resurrection, there was an evolution of attitude between paul, continuing in mark, and then ending up in Matthew and Luke. The passages you have quotes show that very distinctly.

That's a real nice theory you have there, Goat. Problem is you can't back it up with anything other than conjecture. You guys sure do love your far out conspiracy theories!

it is not conjecture. It is written quite plainly in the very gospels you are quoting. I am sorry that you are unable to see the truth. It must be very frustrating for you.

[Metatron]

If God knows all, then does he know as a fact what I will do tomorrow? Not what I *MIGHT* do, but what I absolutely, without fail, will do? If so, then how can I have free will? If not, then how can he be God?

God knows the future but he doesnt look into for every single individual. He only does it if it is part of his WILL. For example if he uses someone to accomplish his will he knows what will happen to him. He knows of course the outcome to this system of things and the world as a whole.

For example lets use the weather. If we were to go somewhere, we could check the weather would be or we could just go with the flow.

God is very just and he watches what every one of us do. He knows the outcome to some of our descisions but he doesnt see our outcome as to whether we gain eternal life or not.

The bible shows that God makes selective and discretionary use of that ability to foreknowm with due regard for the free will with which he has endowed humans.

The problem I see is that you are placing a limitation on God's knowledge, i.e. his omniscience. In your scenario, he does not know everything. He can, by an act of will, find out anything he wants to know but does not automatically possess that knowledge. Thus no omniscience.

[Cathar1950]

You seem to have missed this post.


http://www.answering-christianity.com/iam.htm

1- Jesus saying "I am":
From Sheikh Ahmed Deedat's work; may Allah Almighty rest his soul and grant him Paradise (Ameen):
It is claimed that Jesus used the words, "I am", and since these same words were used by God to describe Himself to the people in the Old Testament, Jesus was claiming to be God. John 8:58, is presented to back this claim. In the verse, Jesus says: " Before Abraham was I am. (John 8:58)" Now, if Jesus existed before Abraham did, that might be a remarkable thing, but does that prove that he was God?
How many people existed before Abraham? The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb; "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)" Yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity. In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: "I am what I am." Long before the time of Jesus, there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The key word, "I am," in Exodus which is used by Christians to prove the deity of Jesus is translated as "HO ON." However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the "I am," is EGO EIMI. If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. How many people in that age would have said "I am," in answer to questions in everyday life. Billions. Are they all gods? Of course not !.


2- So why did the Jews try to kill Jesus for saying "I am"? Wasn't he claiming to be the Creator of the Universe?
The answer to this question is in this verse:
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 23:37)"
The Jews are known to kill the Prophets of GOD Almighty. That's a given fact that was confirmed by Jesus peace be upon him in Matthew 23:37. Jesus doesn't have to claim to be GOD Almighty to trigger them to kill him. Him being a Prophet of GOD Almighty or claiming to be a Prophet from GOD Almighty -- that alone is enough for the Jews to attempt to kill him. Jesus did say before that he was GOD Almighty's Prophet/Messenger:
" "My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. (From the NIV Bible, John 4:34)"
" "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (From the NIV Bible, John 5:24)"
"So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. (From the NIV Bible, John 8:28)"
" "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (From the NIV Bible, John 14:28)"
"Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 10:39-41)"
"And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. "He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." (From the NIV Bible, Luke 10:15-16)"
There are a lot more verses like the ones above that I can provide that clearly prove that (1) GOD Almighty is above Jesus; and (2) Jesus is GOD Almighty's Messenger. But I believe that the above verses are sufficient enough to prove the point. So when Jesus said "I am" (different from GOD Almighty's Hebrew "I am" in the Old Testament as shown above in the first section), he meant to say that he was GOD Almighty's Messenger, and not GOD Almighty Himself.


3- More Rebuttals by www.jewsforjudaism.org:
From http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/faq/faq128.html:
Question: Is the author of the Gospel of John claiming that Jesus is part of a tri-unity god when he has Jesus say, "before Abraham came into being, I am" (John 8:58)?
Answer: John 8:56-58 states: "'Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad.' The Jews therefore said to him: 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I am.'"
Trinitarians argue that the Greek words ego eimi ("I am"), allegedly spoken by Jesus (John 8:58), indicate that Jesus is God (see also John 8:24, 28). They arrive at their contention by connecting the phrase "I am" with the words spoken by God in Exodus 3:14 and often translated: "I AM THAT I AM . . . . Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I AM has sent me to you." However, the literal and proper translation of this verse is: I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE. . . . Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I WILL BE has sent me to you."
Since the author of the Gospel of John utilized the Greek Septuagint translation of the Bible in his writings, it cannot be assumed that John's Jesus is referring to the words in Exodus 3:14. Although Jesus actually spoke in Hebrew or Aramaic, not Greek, John recorded Jesus' alleged words in Greek. Ego eimi ("I am"), used by John's Jesus, is not the same as ho on ("The Being, The One Who Is"), which is used in the Septuagint's rendering of Exodus 3:14: "And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and He said, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: THE BEING has sent me to you." Even though ho on appears in the Gospel of John, it is never used as a title or name or exclusively as a reference to Jesus. In the Book of Revelation, also credited to John by Christian commentators, ho on appears five times (Revelation 1:4, 8; 4:8; 11:17; 16:5). Significantly, in each instance, it is used as a title or designation applied to God, not Jesus. Thus: "John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come; and from the seven spirits who are before His throne" (Revelation 1:4). That this verse refers to God and not Jesus is seen from the following verse, which continues the greeting by now including Jesus as one of those sending greetings. Hence, John says, in verses 4 and 5, that greetings are sent by God, the seven spirits, and Jesus.
In verse 8, John writes: "'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come, the Almighty'" (Revelation 1:8). This verse also speaks of God, not Jesus. In Revelation 4:8, ho on is applied to "the Lord God, the Almighty," not Jesus, who, as the "Lamb" referred to in Revelation 5:6-7, comes to God, who is sitting on His throne. That they are two separate entities is seen from Revelation 5:13: "To the one sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." In addition, ho on is applied to the "Lord God, the Almighty," not Jesus, in Revelation 11:17 and Revelation 16:5. That ho on in Revelation 16:5 refers to God and not Jesus can be seen from verse 7, which, referring to the subject of verses 5 and 6, states: "And I heard the altar saying: 'Yes, Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.'" These are further indications that ho on and ego eimi are not used as synonymous terms by John. In John 8:56-58, John is expounding his belief that Jesus had a prehuman existence as an angelic being in heaven. John's Jesus is proclaiming here that this prehuman existence began before Abraham was born: "Before Abraham came into being, I am." The fact of the matter is that the text does not at all indicate how long Jesus supposedly lived before Abraham. In no honest way can John's statement be taken to identify Jesus as God.

I see a major problem here. We need to look at Greek and Hebrew meaning and translation.
One thing you fail to do is get the right words and translation.
The other is by your logic just about every one is God; Paul, Gabriel and with a little stretch even Pilate and Zacharias.

Acts 21:39

But Paul said (5627) , I am * (5748) a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech (5736) thee, suffer (5657) me to speak (5658) unto the people.
eipen (5627) de o Paulov, Egw anqrwpov men eimi (5748) Ioudaiov, Tarseuv thv Kilikiav, ouk ashmou polewv polithv; deomai (5736) de sou, epitreyon (5657) moi lalhsai (5658) prov ton laon.

Luke 1:19

And the messenger answering said to him, `I am Gabriel, who have been standing near before God, and I was sent to speak unto thee, and to proclaim these good news to thee,

Luke 1:18
And Zacharias said unto the messenger, `Whereby shall I know this? for I am aged, and my wife is advanced in her days?'

Matthew 27:24
And Pilate having seen that it profiteth nothing, but rather a tumult is made, having taken water, he did wash the hands before the multitude, saying, `I am innocent from the blood of this righteous one; ye -- ye shall see; Of course he didn’t use ego just eimi.

1:19
And the angel answering (5679) said (5627) unto him, I am (5748) Gabriel, that stand (5761) in the presence of God; and am sent (5648) to speak (5658) unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings (5670) .
kai apokriqeiv (5679) o aggelov eipen (5627) autw, Egw eimi (5748) Gabrihl o paresthkwv (5761) enwpion tou qeou, kai apestalhn (5648) lalhsai (5658) prov se kai euaggelisasqai (5670) soi tauta;

KJV Verse Count
Matthew 14
Mark 4
Luke 16
John 52
Acts 18
Romans 4
1 Corinthians 9
2 Corinthians 2
Philippians 1
Colossians 1
1 Timothy 1
Hebrews 1
1 Peter 1
2 Peter 1
Revelation 12

Total 137

I think you get my point. Just go though the list and find eime with an ego.
If I were you I would flush and take a shower.

[Easyrider]

I think you get my point. Just go though the list and find eime with an ego.

http://www.caic.org.au/jws/theology/egoeimi.htm

[Cathar1950]

I think we were dealing with Mark. I doubt there is a genuine words of Jesus in the gospel of John, it is so Christological. Given it was in Aramaic translated to Greek you still miss the point in Mark and Paul uses the phrase. I guess what I am saying the Mark quote was useless.

[AB]

Yes

[Lotan]

Why?

[AB]

God loves you. God created you. Thats why

Why?