Is belief in the resurrection reasonable?

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Here are a few things skeptics need to explain if they wish to position themselves as motivated by reason in their rejection of Christ:

1. His life and crucifixion is a matter of historic record - Roman and Jewish. It happened.
2. The only people that could have a motive for making up his resurrection were the apostles, most of whom died rather horrible deaths rather than deny that resurrection. While I know that people will die for what they believe in, if the apostles knew that Christ was not risen, why did they die for what they knew to be a lie?
3. His resurrection was witnessed by hundreds, perhaps thousands and referred to by Paul within 3 years of the event in front of crowds of people. If it didn't happen, why don't we have record of objections to Paul's statements?
4. Jesus was a nobody who appeared on the scene for 3 years and was then killed as a criminal, just like thousands of others were killed by the Romans in the same manner. Yet within a few years of his death, a religion in his name based almost exclusively on his resurrection had spread throughout the Roman empire. What was different about this man to all those others who claimed to be the Messiah?
5. The Jewish rulers were scared witless of revolutionary movements and would do anything to head one off at the pass. The Romans took challenges to their authority about as seriously as any group of people in history. Given that there were people running all over the place saying they had seen the risen Christ, if it wasn't true, why not just torture a few into denial of the fact and kill the movement in its tracks? Pliny the Younger re-counted doing just that a hundred years or so later and was astonished to see how many Christians went to their deaths rather than deny what they also knew to be true.

Yes, a belief in the resurrection is reasonable, but I'd love to hear the reasons why it is not.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Wonderful. Amos 1:9-10, predicting how Tyre would fall, written in 750 BC or thereabouts, fulfilled. Isaiah 13:19, predicting that Babylon would fall, permanently. Fulfilled.

It occurs to me that of the ancient city states and empires contemporary with these writings, the number of them that survive to this day is about zero. Is predicting that an empire will fall, when all empires eventually fall, demonstrative of supernatural knowledge?

Jeremiah 32:36-37, predicting that the Jews would be taken captive to Babylon, then returned.

When was Jeremiah written?

The Book of Jeremiah (Hebrew: ") is the second of the Latter Prophets in the Hebrew Bible, following the book of Isaiah and preceding Ezekiel and the Book of the Twelve. (The order is somewhat different in the Christian Old Testament). It derives its name from, and records the visions of, Jeremiah, who lived in Jerusalem in the late 7th and early 6th centuries BCE during the time of king Josiah and the fall of the Kingdom of Judah to the Babylonians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jeremiah

Can it be proven that this prophecy was made before the event in question occurred?

[Starboard Tack]

Wonderful. Amos 1:9-10, predicting how Tyre would fall, written in 750 BC or thereabouts, fulfilled. Isaiah 13:19, predicting that Babylon would fall, permanently. Fulfilled.

It occurs to me that of the ancient city states and empires contemporary with these writings, the number of them that survive to this day is about zero. Is predicting that an empire will fall, when all empires eventually fall, demonstrative of supernatural knowledge?

Fair point. Many ancient nations have disappeared. The Phillistines, the Moabites, the Babylonians are all gone, and all were predicted to disappear in Scripture. An example of a nation that should have disappeared but was repeatedly predicted not to go away is Israel. An example of a nation that might have disappeared, has not, nor was predicted to disappear are the Persians. Seems this line of reasoning verifies a number of prophecies as well as avoidance of erroneous prophecies in Scripture. Which actually raises an interesting question. Are there examples of prophecies in the Bible that we can point to that are clearly incorrect? For example, if the Bible said that Israel would be restored and it wasn't, I guess we could wonder whether it was false or just not fulfilled yet. Or, if there weren't any more Jews, just like there aren't any Chaldeans, we could probably be comfortable saying that the Bible predicted something that is clearly wrong. In this case, we can't but are there other exampless where this might be so?

Also, are there examples of other religious texts that contain as many prophecies as the Bible? If so, what are they, and what prophecies have they made that have proven to be correct, or are at least unprovable to be incorrect? I suppose if the world ends in 2012 per the Incan prediction, we'll have our answer. I'm betting we'll be able to discuss this in 2013, but we'll see.

Jeremiah 32:36-37, predicting that the Jews would be taken captive to Babylon, then returned.

When was Jeremiah written?

The Book of Jeremiah (Hebrew: ") is the second of the Latter Prophets in the Hebrew Bible, following the book of Isaiah and preceding Ezekiel and the Book of the Twelve. (The order is somewhat different in the Christian Old Testament). It derives its name from, and records the visions of, Jeremiah, who lived in Jerusalem in the late 7th and early 6th centuries BCE during the time of king Josiah and the fall of the Kingdom of Judah to the Babylonians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jeremiah

Can it be proven that this prophecy was made before the event in question occurred?

My ESV indicates that the latest date for its completion would be 550 BC, with the return of the Jews identified as 538 BC. My NASB indicates completion at 586 BC. So no, I doubt this could be proven to be definitively prophetic, although the dates are consistent with this being prophecy.

Any thoughts on identifying Cyrus long before he was born? I have seen this reference many times as clearly prophetic, and not seen any plausible challenge although there may be one. If so, I would like to hear it.

[Mithrae]

Any thoughts on identifying Cyrus long before he was born? I have seen this reference many times as clearly prophetic, and not seen any plausible challenge although there may be one. If so, I would like to hear it.

Reading through Isaiah, I for one do get a general impression of a distinct shift in themes between the first section (1-39) and the second (40-66). (Which, by the by, mirrors the numbers of books in the Protestant Old and New Testaments ) If true that's by no means proof of multiple authorship, but it's a basis for considering the possibility. Even in the book of Daniel the predictions are fairly vague (albeit numerous and consistent across a period), so giving the actual name of an actual person who was going to actually do something specific hundreds of years hence would be a unique phenomenon in biblical prophecy. So to my mind that's reason enough to figure that the question really isn't whether someone can prove that it was written later, but whether anyone can convincingly argue that it was written before?

It occurs to me that of the ancient city states and empires contemporary with these writings, the number of them that survive to this day is about zero. Is predicting that an empire will fall, when all empires eventually fall, demonstrative of supernatural knowledge?

Fair point. Many ancient nations have disappeared. The Phillistines, the Moabites, the Babylonians are all gone, and all were predicted to disappear in Scripture. An example of a nation that should have disappeared but was repeatedly predicted not to go away is Israel. An example of a nation that might have disappeared, has not, nor was predicted to disappear are the Persians. Seems this line of reasoning verifies a number of prophecies as well as avoidance of erroneous prophecies in Scripture. Which actually raises an interesting question. Are there examples of prophecies in the Bible that we can point to that are clearly incorrect?

This one:

• Ezekiel 26:3 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against you, as the sea causes its waves to come up. 4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. 5 It shall be a place for spreading nets in the midst of the sea, for I have spoken, says the Lord GOD; it shall become plunder for the nations. 6 Also her daughter villages which are in the fields shall be slain by the sword. Then they shall know that I am the LORD.
  7 For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people. 8 He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you. 9 He will direct his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. 10 Because of the abundance of his horses, their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen, the wagons, and the chariots, when he enters your gates, as men enter a city that has been breached. 11 With the hooves of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people by the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water. . . .
  
  19 For thus says the Lord GOD: When I make you a desolate city, like cities that are not inhabited, when I bring the deep upon you, and great waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lowest part of the earth, in places desolate from antiquity, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you may never be inhabited; and I shall establish glory in the land of the living. 21 I will make you a terror, and you shall be no more; though you are sought for, you will never be found again, says the Lord GOD.

Tyre still stands today; Nebuchadnezzar besieged it and destroyed the mainland "daughter villages which are in the fields." I'm sure I've read elsewhere that he didn't actually conquer the main island city itself, though Wikipedia is ambiguous on the subject (the article on Nebuchadnezzar suggests that Tyre eventually submitted to conditional Babylonian dominance). In any case, obviously it still stood in the times of Alexander the Great and Jesus, through to the present time. In fact later on in Ezekiel (though the chronology of the book seems distorted) we find that:

• Ezekiel 29:18 Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it. 19 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Surely I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; he shall take away her wealth, carry off her spoil, and remove her pillage; and that will be the wages for his army.

Learning his lesson, Ezekiel didn't predict the complete devastation of Egypt; but unfortunately Nebuchadnezzar apparently didn't even manage to get Egyptian submission in his campaign against them. Amasis II ruled almost all the way through to the Persian conquest under Cambyses.

These are hardly obscure passages; anyone who's read Jeremiah knows that those remaining in Judea at the end fled to Egypt to escape Babylonian influence. Anyone who's read the gospels knows that Jesus and his disciples traveled around near Tyre and Sidon. Ezekiel himself admits the failure of his Tyre prophecy, for crying out loud!

It really is strange that Jews and Christians seem only too happy to to ignore the Torah's guidelines on false prophecy (Deuteronomy 18:14-22), and for thousands of years have allowed this charlatan Ezekiel to remain in their scriptures.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Fair point. Many ancient nations have disappeared. The Phillistines, the Moabites, the Babylonians are all gone, and all were predicted to disappear in Scripture. An example of a nation that should have disappeared but was repeatedly predicted not to go away is Israel. An example of a nation that might have disappeared, has not, nor was predicted to disappear are the Persians. Seems this line of reasoning verifies a number of prophecies as well as avoidance of erroneous prophecies in Scripture. Which actually raises an interesting question. Are there examples of prophecies in the Bible that we can point to that are clearly incorrect? For example, if the Bible said that Israel would be restored and it wasn't, I guess we could wonder whether it was false or just not fulfilled yet. Or, if there weren't any more Jews, just like there aren't any Chaldeans, we could probably be comfortable saying that the Bible predicted something that is clearly wrong. In this case, we can't but are there other exampless where this might be so?

I think the point here is that empires tend to collapse, therefore it is not terribly shocking that a prediction of an empire collapsing should come true. We would expect, based only on chance, for the vast majority of prophecies predicting the fall of an empire to come true.

Also, if we have a historical situation where numerous prophets are running around predicting the future left and right, and the ones who are correct are remembered while the mistaken ones are forgotten, then we are not dealing with a representative sample. Something to consider.

Also, Persia has been ruled by numerous different empires, as has Israel. Extremely vague prophecies that make no mention of how and when an empire or nation will fall are not very impressive either.

Also, are there examples of other religious texts that contain as many prophecies as the Bible? If so, what are they, and what prophecies have they made that have proven to be correct, or are at least unprovable to be incorrect? I suppose if the world ends in 2012 per the Incan prediction, we'll have our answer. I'm betting we'll be able to discuss this in 2013, but we'll see.

Nostradamus? The Baha'i prophecies? I find these at least as impressive as any biblical prophecies myself.

My ESV indicates that the latest date for its completion would be 550 BC, with the return of the Jews identified as 538 BC. My NASB indicates completion at 586 BC. So no, I doubt this could be proven to be definitively prophetic, although the dates are consistent with this being prophecy.

A prediction that things will get better for a people going through tough times. You would think a text inspired by an omnipotent being would have much more precise and impressive prophecies.

Any thoughts on identifying Cyrus long before he was born? I have seen this reference many times as clearly prophetic, and not seen any plausible challenge although there may be one. If so, I would like to hear it.

Perhaps you missed this, several pages ago (it was the last post on the page):

Explain the identification of Cyrus as the future ruler of Persia 150 years before he was born.

Is this in reference to Isaiah 44? If so, once again you are in disagreement with mainstream biblical scholarship.

Deutero-Isaiah (chapters 40-55), a 6th century BCE work by an author who wrote under the Babylonian captivity;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah

The Babylonian captivity was contemporary with Cyrus, not 150 years before him.

[McCulloch]

Wonderful. Amos 1:9-10, predicting how Tyre would fall, written in 750 BC or thereabouts, fulfilled. Isaiah 13:19, predicting that Babylon would fall, permanently. Fulfilled.

The Phillistines, the Moabites, the Babylonians are all gone, and all were predicted to disappear in Scripture. An example of a nation that should have disappeared but was repeatedly predicted not to go away is Israel. An example of a nation that might have disappeared, has not, nor was predicted to disappear are the Persians.

Israel as a nation was devastated and totally destroyed after the defeat of Bar Kokhba. The modern State of Israel, created 1,813 years later is not the same nation.

Are there examples of prophecies in the Bible that we can point to that are clearly incorrect?

Yes there are.

1. The forty year desolation of Egypt predicted in Ezekiel 29
2. The eternal destruction of Tyre in Ezekiel 26

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Well, it would help if I could spell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoplasma_genitalium

Craig Venter's team reported the results here: http://www.pnas.org/content/103/2/425

It's a good model for the absolutely simplest type of living entity since it is parasitic and depends on its host for much of its metabolism. Granted that while no one has a consensus answer on what life is in the first place, self replication and a genome are critical elements thereof. Providing a naturalistic origin of life theory requires explaining how life can self assemble if the simplest we can identify has to have around 380 genes (not the 250 I referenced from memory), attendant protein synthesis as well as a functioning cell wall to protect the whole process while allowing communication with the world outside the cell.

A natural explanation is not forthcoming since the more we learn, the more intractable the problem becomes. That doesn't stop the naturalistic faithful however from imaging a solution, even if one doesn't present itself empirically.

Much better, thank you. Mycoplasma genitalium is a bacterium, a prokaryote, and the prokaryotes as I pointed out earlier are vastly more simple then eukaryotic organisms, organisms with a nucleus, which comprise most organisms on the earth today, including you and myself. And yet as vastly simple as Mycoplasma genitalium is, no one is suggesting that it represents this "first life" that you were claiming gives the "edge" to creationism. The bacteria's, the prokaryotes, happen to be the earliest form of life to leave a record of their existence in the geology of early Earth, on the order of 3800 million years ago.

Geologic time scale:
Eoarchean (era)[24] Simple single-celled life (probably bacteria and archaea). Oldest probable microfossils. 3800 (million years)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_time_scale

The early bacteria's, being photosynthetic, are in fact responsible for the free oxygen in the atmosphere of early Earth. The earliest eukaryotic organisms did not first appear until 1800 million years ago or so. And in fact most eukaryotic organisms require the oxygen which had begun to be manufactured eons earlier by their simple non-nucleus possessing forebears, the bacteria's. What the record shows is that life moved from simple to increasingly complex, and did so incredibly slowly at first, just as evolution predicts. But not even the simplest prokaryotes, like M. genitalium, are candidates for "first" life. For that we must turn to the protobionts, structures which can't even accurately be termed organisms since they aren't clearly organic and don't possess all of the attributes associated with biological life. Simple molecules which have the achieved the remarkable ability to reproduce themselves. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protobionts

So turn to the viruses. The simplest of the viruses are nothing but a chain of molecules that incorporate a simple RNA molecule. Literally, all they do is replicate themselves. They don't respire, they don't excrete, and they don't die, because they were never "living" to begin with. They can be broken apart and destroyed easily enough, but if left intact they can remain inert apparently indefinitely. Then, given the necessary environmental conditions, they replicate themselves. I am not suggesting that viruses represent "first life" either. They are not life at all, for one thing. But it is generally held that something like this, something which blurs the distinction between what is living and what is chemistry rather than organic biology, is responsible for earliest life itself. Simple to complex with the passage of time. The problem of the origin of life is hardly "intractable." It's just that it is not completely understood yet. But research continues.

[Starboard Tack]

This one:

I'm not so sure.....Ezekial was completed by 575 BC, so it is entirely possible that the siege by the Babylonians that lasted 13 years ending in a stalemate was underway when the prophecy was written. However, the destruction of Tyre took place under Alexander over 200 years later, and it was pretty complete. From Gleason Archer:

"In point of fact, the mainland city of Tyre later was rebuilt and assumed some of its former importance during the Hellenistic period. But as for the island city, it apparently sank below the surface of the MediterraneanAll that remains of it is a series of black reefs offshore from Tyre, which surely could not have been there in the first and second millennia b.c., since they pose such a threat to navigation. The promontory that now juts out from the coastline probably was washed up along the barrier of Alexanders causeway, but the island itself broke off and sank away when the subsidence took place; and we have no evidence at all that it ever was built up again after Alexanders terrible act of vengeance. In the light of these data, then, the predictions of chapter 26, improbable though they must have seemed in Ezekiels time, were duly fulfilled to the letter"first by Nebuchadnezzar in the sixth century, and then by Alexander in the fourth." (Archer, Tyre, Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties)

That said, Ezekiel 26 could be argued to be a retrodiction with respect to the Babylonians, if not very accurate with respect to the eventual consequence for Tyre. Check out a Google Earth map and try to find the ancient city.....