How do we know a sinner when we see one?

[Argenta]

A sinner is one who transgresses God’s law. But what is God’s law? Would any two Christians agree on exactly what this law is? Presumably, the Ten Commandments are included but what about the laws set out in Deuteronomy et al? Is wearing a garment made of two fibres a sin? Am I a sinner if I refuse to stone my unruly child? If we could agree what God’s law is we may be able to establish if all humans really are sinners.

Christianity teaches that all humans are sinners as a principle when in fact it is a question that admits of an empirical answer. Does Christianity say this because those who are free of sin do not need Jesus Christ?

If only the Ten Commandments are included it may be that some people are free of sin. The truth is we cannot know until we define god’s laws explicitly. Can we compile a comprehensive list of sins? And if we can, I wonder if anyone would truly wish to be sin-free?

Argenta

[East of Eden]

I have to wonder about everyone who condoned the killing of innocents (children and babies among them) in the Bible... if an army invaded your country and your own child resulted killed as collateral damage, would you argue that it's OK because it was God's will, or would you be pressing your government to bomb the life out of the army's country? How can we know which killings, biblical or not, are God-commanded and which aren't? Personal opinion about who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?

Ancient Israel had a right to defend herself, just as we did in WWII, when we killed plenty of women and children who were noncombatants. Anyway, you are confusing the actions of the theocracy of Israel with Christianity.

But Israel wasn't 'defending herself' when she killed the innocents, she was driving the inhabitants out of the land in order to take it over, commanded by God, according to the Bible.

Nothing new there about taking over a land, the US did it, as well as countless Indian tribes before us, who were always warring over territory.

There are certainly places in the Bible when God uses one nation to punish another, or to accomplish His purposes in some way. For example it is my opinion that God raised up the Roman Empire in the first century to provide a peaceful interlude (Pax Romana) which facilitated that early spread of the Gospel. Were other nations put down by this Roman ascendancy? If so, it was worth it to achieve the greater goal of spreading the Gospel of salvation to the then known world. In WWII, the Allies tragically destroyed the historic hilltop abbey of Monte Cassino, founded in AD 524 by Benedict of Nursia. This was part of the greater cause of defeating the Axis powers.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 239:

...
If you're asking if I'm a Bible-believer, I am. Jesus was one of those too.
...

How might Jesus be a "Bible-believer", when the Bible was compose decades to centuries after his death?

[Lux]

Ancient Israel had a right to defend herself, just as we did in WWII, when we killed plenty of women and children who were noncombatants. Anyway, you are confusing the actions of the theocracy of Israel with Christianity.

I'm not confusing it, I'm simply wondering if people who condone the violence in the Bible because it was allegedly God-ordered or approved would apply that same standard to themselves and their families. Think about it, homosexual activity is condemned in the Bible and allowed in the USA, so by that rule of three we could argue that a country that invades the USA and kills a ton of innocents may very well have been led by God as punishment, correct?

Of course I don't actually believe any of that, but I fail to see why anybody who believes and/or theoretically condones the stories of Soddom and Gomorrah would disagree.

[mitty]

As I see it, everything Adstar ascribes to God is actually "human thinking" (those humans who wrote the Bible). And much if it is horrific. To not recognize this and say it's God and it's OK is one of the most mistaken, wrong headed, backward, and vile things I have ever encountered. I find it hard to believe that people walk the earth who think this way.

To be fair, the capacity of some Christians for creative rationalization is awesome. I have known people who could find reasons for all these things that, in their minds, justified them. If one assumes that God cannot be gratuitously cruel and unjust, then there must be a reason they deserved these horrors; put that together with the idea that the horrors are exaggerated, and there you go. You can't see injustice and evil if your premise is that it can't really be there.

It's one thing though to have these views and if that's all it is - well I have my eccentricities too which affect no one else. But it's when the theory is put into practice and events such as the inquisition, suicide bombers, the Jewish haulocaust, vilification, shooting of abortion-clinic staff, are somehow justified.

Jesus never commanded any of the events, which makes your allegation that they are Christianity put into practice bogus. You don't judge a philosophy by it's mispractice.

Of course not, just as a bronze-age god had nothing to do with the foul atrocities of Joshua or forgiving David's crimes. But these are the sort of atrocities which have happened when misguided people convince themselves that the supernatural parts of the bible are real and are not at best just theory. Jesus has been dead for almost two millenia and if he could be resurrected he would be disgusted with the horrible things that have been done in his name over the centuries. In contrast I don't think the Buddha if resurrected would have the same complaints about followers of Buddhism.

[mitty]

As I see it, everything Adstar ascribes to God is actually "human thinking" (those humans who wrote the Bible).

You've got it backwards, there is a similarity because we are made in God's image.

No, it's the reverse. Bronze-age men made their god in their image.

To not recognize this and say it's God and it's OK is one of the most mistaken, wrong headed, backward, and vile things I have ever encountered. I find it hard to believe that people walk the earth who think this way.

Relatively few people don't believe in a God. I consider that ignorant, not vile. Why do you care so strongly what others believe?

That's a very sweeping statement. I would suggest that most of the 6.5 billion people don't believe or are complacent about the theory and haven't bothered to think about it at all. Empty churches demonstrate that most people just attended church out of custom and fashion. I suspect that applies to a lot of Moslems as well.

[Adstar]

So you also admit joining in the insults. Do you think i am here to win affection? I love my God more then anything or anyone else.

Jesus said:

Matthew 10
22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

How True you are Jesus. Their hate affirms my belief in you even more.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I don't think anyone hates you, some of us just want to live peacefully, free from dangerous superstition.

Strange you put a white flag up with the international symbol of peace on it and your putting it up to me one who has stated that His religion is one of extreme pacifism. If everyone was like me then there would be no more wars cause the evil elites would not be able to raise armies. I follow Jesus and He tells me to love my enemies not kill them.

Nothing dangerous about my faith. You will never get any violence from a true Christian. We are as harmless as doves.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

Jesus said:

Matthew 10
22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

How True you are Jesus. Their hate affirms my belief in you even more.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

For clarification, I do not hate you either. I do not hate you for Christ's namesake -- I'm also a Christian.

I do not recognise you as such. Your free to call yourself as you wish. But Christians believe God. Your personal construct you call God does not exist. You talk about the Haiti earthquake and the hundreds of thousands that died, you try to use it as an argument. But the very argument makes your "god" non existent for your supposed god allowed the earthquake to happen and 200,000 people to die and thousands to mourn their deaths.. You personal construct of a "god" would never allow such a thing.

I have no problem with Haiti, Chile, Pakistan, China or the other big earthquakes that have caused massive damage over recent years. My God is not eliminated by these things. But you "god" is shown as powerless to prevent mass deaths and save the lives of little babies crushed by falling buildings.

I do pity you holding onto your pathetic construct of a "god" one that everyone knows does not exist.

You may use whatever reason you wish to justify your position, but please do not do so because you believe that I hate you -- I do not. I do not hate you. I do not hate Jesus. And I do not hate God.

Of course you hate God. But you love your own constructed smorgasbord "god" because he is just an extension of yourself. Any half decent atheist could demolish your "god" in one post.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[wonderer]

So you also admit joining in the insults. Do you think i am here to win affection? I love my God more then anything or anyone else.

Jesus said:

Matthew 10
22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

How True you are Jesus. Their hate affirms my belief in you even more.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I don't think anyone hates you, some of us just want to live peacefully, free from dangerous superstition.

Strange you put a white flag up with the international symbol of peace on it and your putting it up to me one who has stated that His religion is one of extreme pacifism. If everyone was like me then there would be no more wars cause the evil elites would not be able to raise armies. I follow Jesus and He tells me to love my enemies not kill them.

Nothing dangerous about my faith. You will never get any violence from a true Christian. We are as harmless as doves.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Is Jesus himself not a true Christian, then, because Jesus is going to come and kill his enemies at the end (Revelation). These enemies will include a lot of nice little old ladies who don't believe in him.

[Adstar]

As I see it, everything Adstar ascribes to God is actually "human thinking" (those humans who wrote the Bible). And much if it is horrific. To not recognize this and say it's God and it's OK is one of the most mistaken, wrong headed, backward, and vile things I have ever encountered. I find it hard to believe that people walk the earth who think this way.

To be fair, the capacity of some Christians for creative rationalization is awesome. I have known people who could find reasons for all these things that, in their minds, justified them. If one assumes that God cannot be gratuitously cruel and unjust, then there must be a reason they deserved these horrors; put that together with the idea that the horrors are exaggerated, and there you go. You can't see injustice and evil if your premise is that it can't really be there.

It's one thing though to have these views and if that's all it is - well I have my eccentricities too which affect no one else. But it's when the theory is put into practice and events such as the inquisition, suicide bombers, the Jewish haulocaust, vilification, shooting of abortion-clinic staff, are somehow justified.

Jesus never commanded any of the events, which makes your allegation that they are Christianity put into practice bogus. You don't judge a philosophy by it's mispractice.

Oh but they do East of Eden. Why? Because they want to believe it. Not because it was what Jesus told them to do. None of these things would have happened if they had been true followers of the Messiah Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

I have to wonder about everyone who condoned the killing of innocents (children and babies among them) in the Bible... if an army invaded your country and your own child resulted killed as collateral damage, would you argue that it's OK because it was God's will, or would you be pressing your government to bomb the life out of the army's country? How can we know which killings, biblical or not, are God-commanded and which aren't? Personal opinion about who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?

I would argue that it was the will of the invading army and it's leadership to invade and it was Gods will to allow them to do so.

We are all bad guys. Only God is Good.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days