Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?

[Nickman]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

[Goat]

Greetings to all.
Oh my God.So much reading to do.Dont you people go to sleep.Looks more like a can is opened and worms start to fly like missiles.
Note arguments go nowhere.Its just trying to win a point of view with endless rumblings.Lets all(,Jews,Christians,Muslims) put our heads on the block and come to a reasonable answer after all God has given us intelligence which we can use to reason our way forward.

Simple questions.
To all Jews from the Judaism religion.
Jesus definitely fulfilled some of the requirements of the prophecies for Messiahship.Can you please list the rest of the prophecies that Jesus did not fulfil with proof from the OT.
Hence my question is if Jesus returns to fulfil the rest of your demands for Messiahship will you accept him as your Messiah?

Gosh, it's so nice of you to tell the Jewish people that "Jesus definitely fullfilled some of the requirements of the prophecies". Somehow, it doesn't seem to Jews that he fill filled any.

[Nickman]

FaroukFarouk

Greetings
Nickman no you have not answered my question.
My question is so simple and i don't see why you are finding it difficult to answer.
Jesus definitely fulfilled some of the requirements of the prophecies for Messiahship which you yourself agreed.

I did answer your question in post 180 and 171 which was an answer to your post 170. In post 170 you made the claim that Jesus fulfilled 5 prophecies and I addressed each one verse by verse giving you the reason why Jesus is not the Hebrew messiah. I told you he possibly fulfilled the birth and the Judaic lineage passages you posted but for the rest of them I showed why he didn't fulfill them. Im not gonna repeat myself when you didn't even address my refutation to begin with and now accuse me of not addressing your questions. Please look at the above posts I have mentioned and address my counter argument to your original claim. Refrain from making a blanket statement when I have clearly addressed everything you asked.

In any debate, the person who makes the original claim has to provide evidence. You did so by posting several verses. I used proper debate etiquette and addressed those claims verse by verse. It is now your turn to address my rebuttal to your claims on post # 171 and 181.

I also answered your question that asks if I would believe Jesus to be the Messiah if he returned and fulfilled these other requirements that you know he hasn't fulfilled yet. I did this by telling you that Jesus failed his own claims and directed you to the thread "Olivet Discourse" and provided a link. So to me it is impossible for Jesus to fulfill the actual messianic requirements that truly matter. I have provided evidence extensively in that thread as to why he failed and why he cannot be the messiah. All you have to do is look and read and make a rebuttal if you disagree. You can claim all day that Jesus fulfilled the birth requirement and the Judaic lineage requirement and Ill agree by giving a special pass to the gospels as being reliable for the sake of the argument. These two requirements mean nothing in the scope of what the messiah was supposed to do. I stated before that the messiah was to be a political leader who brings the Israelites out of captivity and returns them to Jerusalem. I also mentioned that he would rule the nations. In post 171 and 181 I used the verses you provided and quoted more of those same chapters to show that you ripped them out of context and that there was ore information you neglected. So if you want to know what the requirements are they are listed on posts 171 and 181 with attached verses. These posts you didn't address at all and now accuse me of not answering your questions. So I accuse you of ignoring posts and failing to read posts addressed to you in a counter argument of what you previously posted.

[Nickman]

Greetings to all.
Oh my God.So much reading to do.Dont you people go to sleep.Looks more like a can is opened and worms start to fly like missiles.
Note arguments go nowhere.Its just trying to win a point of view with endless rumblings.Lets all(,Jews,Christians,Muslims) put our heads on the block and come to a reasonable answer after all God has given us intelligence which we can use to reason our way forward.

Simple questions.
To all Jews from the Judaism religion.
Jesus definitely fulfilled some of the requirements of the prophecies for Messiahship.Can you please list the rest of the prophecies that Jesus did not fulfil with proof from the OT.
Hence my question is if Jesus returns to fulfil the rest of your demands for Messiahship will you accept him as your Messiah?

Gosh, it's so nice of you to tell the Jewish people that "Jesus definitely fullfilled some of the requirements of the prophecies". Somehow, it doesn't seem to Jews that he fill filled any.

It is really "nice" when he doesn't provide the reasons why Jesus denitely fulfilled some of the requirements and resorts to blanket statements.

[cnorman18]

The tactics being used by Farouk here are not debating tactics; they are propaganda tactics. Those include baldly ignoring points that have been made and arguments that have been posted as if they had never been made and refusing to respond to them; innuendo and veiled accusation; and, of course, outright plagiarism which is not acknowledged even after it has been proven.

Greetings
Nickman no you have not answered my question.

Yes, he has. In detail, and with links. Pretending that he hasn't is, shall we say, disingenuous as well as objectively false.

My question is so simple and i don't see why you are finding it difficult to answer.

Pretending that your "questions" are "difficult to answer" is a veiled accusation of dissembling and dishonesty. This is called "innuendo." It is a propaganda technique, used to smear one's opponent as dishonest or deceptive without coming out and making the accusation directly.

Jesus definitely fulfilled some of the requirements of the prophecies for Messiahship which you yourself agreed.

Yes; the trivial ones of birth and lineage which were fulfilled by myriads of Jews for centuries on end and are meaningless for the purposes of identifying the Messiah. You have not even acknowledged the FACTS of these "fulfilled requirements," let alone addressed their significance -- or more properly, their obvious LACK of significance.

Now can you please list the rest of the prophecies that Jesus did not fulfil with proof from the OT.

Nickman did precisely that, in detail and with references. Your blatant pretense that he has not is as transparent as glass.

and
My question is if Jesus returns to fulfil the rest of your demands for Messiahship will you accept him as your Messiah?
Yes or no.

That has been answered as well, again in detail and with supporting evidence. Again, your pretending that Nickman is unwilling to debate you is a falsehood and a blatant propaganda tactic. Why don't YOU respond to his statements, which are detailed, extensive, and on the record for all to see -- instead of blithely ignoring them and falsely accusing him of posting nothing?

Note if you stand for reason then don't avoid the question.

Innuendo again. Pretending that Nickman -- or indeed, ANYONE here -- is "avoiding the question" is innuendo, that is, an attempted smear as well as a blatant falsehood.

But if you are having difficulty in answering this simple question then i will understand and i am sure there are other Jews in this forum that will not avoid such simple questioning.

Arrogant patronizing does not help your case; your falsehoods are still evident and blatantly obvious. No one is "having difficulty in answering this simple question"; YOU are having difficulty in acknowledging and responding to the answers that HAVE been given, and over and over.

Maybe Charles can give me an answer.

Charles already has. Besides pointing out that you have cut and pasted your entire post from a Christian site dedicated to converting Jews to Christianity, I have provided a link to a Jewish site which definitively and in detail explains why Jesus was not, in the Jewish view, the Jewish Messiah, with references to the Hebrew Bible as you requested. Here it is again. Take care that you do not ignore it and pretend it has not been given a second time.

May peace and blessings be upon Jesus,his mother Mary and all mentioned Prophets.
May you all have a peaceful day.

Before you wish everyone a "peaceful day," perhaps you should consider dealing honestly with the responses you have received, instead of falsely pretending that you have received none.

Everyone else here is interested in debating; you are apparently interested only in propaganda; innuendo, smear, smug pretenses, and a hugely obvious AVOIDANCE of debate.

You've received plenty of answers to your questions, and you received them before you posted again and claimed that you had received none. Now, what is YOUR answer? It's time, once again, for YOU to speak, as opposed to posting an endless series of tactical questions and refusing to answer any yourself.

[faroukfarouk]

Greetings
What you are now withnessing is 2 Jews with 2 differing opinions.

First opinion
Goat wrote
Gosh, it's so nice of you to tell the Jewish people that "Jesus definitely fulfilled some of the requirements of the prophecies". Somehow, it doesn't seem to Jews that he fill filled any.

Second opinion
Nickman wrote
What we have is christians who take the least important parts of the messiah such as birth, tribe and the like yet disregard the "meat and taters" portions that tell of what the Messiah was supposed to do. Then they wonder why Jews don't believe in Jesus.Although Jesus does meet the smallest requirements such as birth and lineage he does not meet the requirements that actually matter. That would be the actions the messiah is supposed to perform. Jesus doesn't fulfill any of these important aspects of being the messiah. To add, the Messiah wasn't supposed to KNOW he was the messiah and proclaim himself as such. He was just a man, political leader that would bring Israel back into their promised land and would rule over all nations no longer to be taken captive again. Jesus doesn't do any of this. The messiah was not supposed to be resurrected or any of the things that the gospels authors wrote about Jesus.



Note Nickman I never refuted any thing you said.I am not saying you are right nor am I saying you are wrong.I am merely reserving my refutations.

Now back to the questions which you refuse to answer.I am going to reframe the question so maybe you will understand my questions correctly.

This is your post of 171[/color
]Lets see if what you have posted matches up. You have made the claim that Jesus actually fulfilled the requirements and have listed those "prophecies" so this gives me a good of information to work with. I will address each topic and verse one by one.

1. Messiah born in Bethlehem
Micah 5:1
Quote:
[a]Marshal your troops now, city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israels ruler on the cheek with a rod. 2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.

So far its states that the Messiah will come out of Bethlehem but not necessarily born in Bethlehem. In any event this person will be from Bethlehem. So, according to the gospels Jesus fit this prediction. One must realize that the gospels were written after the prophecies and we cannot verify their authenticity. We cannot verify either way if they were fraudulent or not. The gospels seem to wiggle around in an attempt to make Jesus born there. Jesus was not from Bethlehem. He was born there. Micah alludes to someone who is from there and not necessarily by birth. Jesus was not from there. He was a last minute birth and then his family took him elsewhere.

Quote:
3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned until the time when she who is in labor bears a son, and the rest of his brothers return to join the Israelites.

None of the Israelites that were captive in foreign lands returned to join the Israelites when Jesus was alive. This is a big problem for Jesus because the Messiah was supposed to be a political leader who would stop the captivity and bring Israel back to be a nation by gathering those captive in foreign lands. This never happened with Jesus.
Quote:
4 He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God. And they will live securely, for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth.

This never happened with Jesus
Quote:
5 And he will be our peace when the Assyrians invade our land and march through our fortresses. We will raise against them seven shepherds, even eight commanders, 6 who will rule[c] the land of Assyria with the sword, the land of Nimrod with drawn sword.[d] He will deliver us from the Assyrians when they invade our land and march across our borders.

Jesus never delivered the Israelites from the Assyrians and he never will because the Assyrians don't exist anymore. In order to understand the Messiah we must read the context and not pick and choose. You seem to pick the things that Jesus did fulfill such as his Bethlehem birth, but the most important things as I have listed in Micah were not fulfilled.

2. Messiah from tribe of Judah
Here you use Genesis 49:10 and rip it out of context. Genesis 49 is about Jacob blessing his children. When he gets to his son Judah he makes mention that Judah's lineage will be the ruling lineage. From this lineage one will rule who's right it is to do so. The nation's obedience will be his. This never happened with Jesus. There is no mention of a second coming either.

Quote:
Judah, your brothers will praise you; your hand will be on the neck of your enemies; your fathers sons will bow down to you. 9 You are a lions cub, Judah; you return from the prey, my son. Like a lion he crouches and lies down, like a lioness"who dares to rouse him? 10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the rulers staff from between his feet,[c] until he to whom it belongs[d] shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his. 11 He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch; he will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes. 12 His eyes will be darker than wine, his teeth whiter than milk.[e]


3. Riding an ass Zechariah 9:9 Again here you rip the verse out of context and also fail to realize Jesus rode two animals which is not what the verse states. If you continue to read Zechariah 9 there are things that Jesus didn't do, which I highlighted below.
Quote:
Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. 10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the warhorses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth
.

4. Daniel 9:24-27 Many people have tried to make Jesus fit the 70/7s prophecy. There are dozens of interpretations. No one has ever been able to do it.

5. Isaiah 52:13 and 53:12
Quote:
52:13 See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. 14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him[c]" his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness" 15 so he will sprinkle many nations,[d] and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand


This makes no mention of Jesus or him being beaten. Isaiah 51-53 all speak of Israel who is the personified suffering servant who is humiliated, suffered, disfigured beyond recognition due to their captivity. It is not Messianic at all. Israel fits the description given by Isaiah to the exact letter.

What we have is christians who take the least important parts of the messiah such as birth, tribe and the like yet disregard the "meat and taters" portions that tell of what the Messiah was supposed to do. Then they wonder why Jews don't believe in Jesus. Although Jesus does meet the smallest requirements such as birth and lineage he does not meet the requirements that actually matter. That would be the actions the messiah is supposed to perform. Jesus doesn't fulfill any of these important aspects of being the messiah. To add, the Messiah wasn't supposed to KNOW he was the messiah and proclaim himself as such. He was just a man, political leader that would bring Israel back into their promised land and would rule over all nations no longer to be taken captive again. Jesus doesn't do any of this. The messiah was not supposed to be resurrected or any of the things that the gospels authors wrote about Jesus.

This is your post of 181
think I answered this question in my post before you even asked it. There are certain aspects that the NT authors wrote that Jesus fulfilled such as being born in Bethlehem or being a Jew or from the lineage of Judah the son of Jacob. These are trivial though and millions of people have fulfilled these simple requirements throughout Jewish history. The problem is that Jesus doesn't fulfill the actual "meat and taters" portion as I stated earlier. I outlined those requirements in my post. Please go back and read it. Just one of those things was that the messiah was supposed to free Israel from captivity from all nations that they had been scattered to and establish Israel again as a nation, never to be taken captive again. On top of this, the messiah would rule the nations and all nations would serve Israel. These are true messianic requirements. Jesus didn't fulfill those. Jesus cannot fulfill those because Israel is its own nation and no longer captive, and this is not a result of his actions. So yes, Jesus, according to the gospel authors may have fulfilled the birth and genealogical requirements (this is still not verifiable) but he completely failed to do the things that actually mattered and the true actions that would show he was the messiah. Have you ever asked a Jew why they don't believe Jesus to be the messiah? I urge you to do so and you may realize that Jesus truly was not the Hebrew messiah.

Note my question is simple.
1.All your demands that you wrote above that the Messiah must fillfull please reference it to the OT.
2.So far as what is possible or impossible is in Gods hands and as such if Jesus has to return back to earth and fillfull all your demands.Will you as a Jew accept him as your Messiah?
Yes or no.

I dont see why you should have any difficulty in answering such a simple question unless maybe there is something hidden in the closet.


May peace and blessings be upon Jesus,his mother Mary and all mentioned Prophets.
May you all have a peaceful

[cnorman18]

I just saw this post; even though we have moved well past it, I feel compelled to respond for reasons which will be evident.

...would YOU consider a Scientogist who follows Jesus's teachings, but believes that he was a mortal man who died and is still dead, a "Christian"?...do YOU think such a man is a Christian, or not? Yes or no?...

In my opinion, a Christian is a person whose life orbits around the life and example and teaching of Jesus. I do not think that "correct doctrine" or "correct beliefs" make one a Christian; rather, one's ongoing transformation from a self-centered life toward a Christ-centered life is what counts. And that is something that only God can judge.

I would say that you are rather out of the mainstream in that position. Most denominations of Christianity (it might be informative to know your own) have subscribed to the Creeds, either the Apostles' Creed or the Nicene Creed, and have maintained that accepting one or both is necessary in order to be considered a follower of Christ and a member of the Christian religion.

I believe in freedom of thought, of course; but it seems clear that you take that freedom to the extreme of redefining your own religion, as well as that of others.

...Except that one is a Jew who no longer follows the Jewish religion as determined -- not by me -- but by centuries of Jewish tradition and teaching...Show what warrant you have for negating the rulings of the Talmud, Of the Midrash and Responsa, and of every rabbi and Jewish scholar from the fall of Rome to the present day...

I do not deny that post-temple Judaism has morphed and adopted ad hoc stipulations regarding Jesus.

I have dealt with that objectively false claim and its contemptible implications elsewhere, and will mention it again below.

Rather, what I am saying is that if Jesus was indeed the Jewish Messiah, then those Jews who reject Jesus are in the wrong, and those Jews who accept Jesus are in the right. Either way, it isn't the Jewishness of the person that is in question, but rather, "Which Jew has the more adequate understanding of Jesus?"

A more appropriate question might be, "Which Jew has the more adequate understanding of the identifying characteristics of the Messiah according to millenia of Jewish tradition and teaching -- and which is imposing the definitions, standards and in fact the wholly different foundational beliefs of another faith?" I have shown that in my last post to you. After you have retracted your false claims, I would like to see you address ALL of those issues, and not just keep returning to the same tired arguments that I have already refuted multiple times -- e.g., that this is matter of personal opinion as opposed to actual, long-established traditions, teachings, and extensive documentation that long preceded Jesus.

...Why it is so important to Christians to convince Jews that believing in Jesus is an acceptable part of our religion...

You are begging the question yet again (it is unavoidable for you, it seems). Rejecting Jesus as Messiah is a stipulation only for those Jews who reject Jesus; but at the same time, if a Jew accepts Jesus the Jew as the Jewish Messiah, this does not make the Jew any less a Jew.

And once again, you are putting words in my mouth that I have never spoken nor written. I have never, not once, not ever, insinuated that ANYONE was "any less a Jew" for ANY reason. I DEMAND that you retract these multiple claims and admit that you ARE and HAVE BEEN putting words in my mouth that I never said nor intended to say, and that you do so in your next post.

You are desperate to deny this and obfuscate the issue, but the fact remains: you feel an absolute imperative to insist that all true Jews must deny Jesus as Messiah, and that any Jew who accepts Jesus is therefore a phony Jew (from your religious perspective).

Here again: "True Jew" and "Phony Jew" are words that I have never thought, never mind meant, spoken, or written. Further, claims like "you are desperate" and "you feel an absolute imperative" are not debating points, but claims of outright mindreading. You have no warrant to claim to know what is in my mind. For the record, I am not "desperate" about anything, nor do I feel an "absolute compulsion" about anything at all: I speak my convictions, and I'll thank you to deal with my arguments and not attempt to smear my motivations and my character.

Once again; I DEMAND that you retract your falsehoods in putting words in my mouth -- to detail that charge, in attributing arguments to me which I have never made, and pretending that I have motivations and agendas which I do not have. You will retract those falsehoods, as well as your false and scurrilous claim about "Jewish leaders" adopting "ad hoc stipulations to ensure that any Jewish person who accepts Jesus as the Jewish Messiah is thereby and automatically bounced out of ... the mainstream Jewish faith tradition," in your next post, or we will go no farther in this debateThere is no excuse for falsifying my words and my positions, and there is even less excuse for defaming the Jewish people by falsifying our history and impugning our collective integrity -- and I will not dignify such charges by continuing to engage in "debate" with one who stoops to such tactics and refuses to admit to them and withdraw them.

[cnorman18]

Greetings
What you are now withnessing is 2 Jews with 2 differing opinions.

First opinion
Goat wrote
Gosh, it's so nice of you to tell the Jewish people that "Jesus definitely fulfilled some of the requirements of the prophecies". Somehow, it doesn't seem to Jews that he fill filled any.

Second opinion
Nickman wrote
What we have is christians who take the least important parts of the messiah such as birth, tribe and the like yet disregard the "meat and taters" portions that tell of what the Messiah was supposed to do. Then they wonder why Jews don't believe in Jesus.Although Jesus does meet the smallest requirements such as birth and lineage he does not meet the requirements that actually matter. That would be the actions the messiah is supposed to perform. Jesus doesn't fulfill any of these important aspects of being the messiah. To add, the Messiah wasn't supposed to KNOW he was the messiah and proclaim himself as such. He was just a man, political leader that would bring Israel back into their promised land and would rule over all nations no longer to be taken captive again. Jesus doesn't do any of this. The messiah was not supposed to be resurrected or any of the things that the gospels authors wrote about Jesus.



Note Nickman I never refuted any thing you said.I am not saying you are right nor am I saying you are wrong.I am merely reserving my refutations.

Now back to the questions which you refuse to answer.I am going to reframe the question so maybe you will understand my questions correctly.

This is your post of 171[/color
]Lets see if what you have posted matches up. You have made the claim that Jesus actually fulfilled the requirements and have listed those "prophecies" so this gives me a good of information to work with. I will address each topic and verse one by one.

1. Messiah born in Bethlehem
Micah 5:1
Quote:
[a]Marshal your troops now, city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israels ruler on the cheek with a rod. 2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.

So far its states that the Messiah will come out of Bethlehem but not necessarily born in Bethlehem. In any event this person will be from Bethlehem. So, according to the gospels Jesus fit this prediction. One must realize that the gospels were written after the prophecies and we cannot verify their authenticity. We cannot verify either way if they were fraudulent or not. The gospels seem to wiggle around in an attempt to make Jesus born there. Jesus was not from Bethlehem. He was born there. Micah alludes to someone who is from there and not necessarily by birth. Jesus was not from there. He was a last minute birth and then his family took him elsewhere.

Quote:
3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned until the time when she who is in labor bears a son, and the rest of his brothers return to join the Israelites.

None of the Israelites that were captive in foreign lands returned to join the Israelites when Jesus was alive. This is a big problem for Jesus because the Messiah was supposed to be a political leader who would stop the captivity and bring Israel back to be a nation by gathering those captive in foreign lands. This never happened with Jesus.
Quote:
4 He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God. And they will live securely, for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth.

This never happened with Jesus
Quote:
5 And he will be our peace when the Assyrians invade our land and march through our fortresses. We will raise against them seven shepherds, even eight commanders, 6 who will rule[c] the land of Assyria with the sword, the land of Nimrod with drawn sword.[d] He will deliver us from the Assyrians when they invade our land and march across our borders.

Jesus never delivered the Israelites from the Assyrians and he never will because the Assyrians don't exist anymore. In order to understand the Messiah we must read the context and not pick and choose. You seem to pick the things that Jesus did fulfill such as his Bethlehem birth, but the most important things as I have listed in Micah were not fulfilled.

2. Messiah from tribe of Judah
Here you use Genesis 49:10 and rip it out of context. Genesis 49 is about Jacob blessing his children. When he gets to his son Judah he makes mention that Judah's lineage will be the ruling lineage. From this lineage one will rule who's right it is to do so. The nation's obedience will be his. This never happened with Jesus. There is no mention of a second coming either.

Quote:
Judah, your brothers will praise you; your hand will be on the neck of your enemies; your fathers sons will bow down to you. 9 You are a lions cub, Judah; you return from the prey, my son. Like a lion he crouches and lies down, like a lioness"who dares to rouse him? 10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the rulers staff from between his feet,[c] until he to whom it belongs[d] shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his. 11 He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch; he will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes. 12 His eyes will be darker than wine, his teeth whiter than milk.[e]


3. Riding an ass Zechariah 9:9 Again here you rip the verse out of context and also fail to realize Jesus rode two animals which is not what the verse states. If you continue to read Zechariah 9 there are things that Jesus didn't do, which I highlighted below.
Quote:
Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. 10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the warhorses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth
.

4. Daniel 9:24-27 Many people have tried to make Jesus fit the 70/7s prophecy. There are dozens of interpretations. No one has ever been able to do it.

5. Isaiah 52:13 and 53:12
Quote:
52:13 See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. 14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him[c]" his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness" 15 so he will sprinkle many nations,[d] and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand


This makes no mention of Jesus or him being beaten. Isaiah 51-53 all speak of Israel who is the personified suffering servant who is humiliated, suffered, disfigured beyond recognition due to their captivity. It is not Messianic at all. Israel fits the description given by Isaiah to the exact letter.

What we have is christians who take the least important parts of the messiah such as birth, tribe and the like yet disregard the "meat and taters" portions that tell of what the Messiah was supposed to do. Then they wonder why Jews don't believe in Jesus. Although Jesus does meet the smallest requirements such as birth and lineage he does not meet the requirements that actually matter. That would be the actions the messiah is supposed to perform. Jesus doesn't fulfill any of these important aspects of being the messiah. To add, the Messiah wasn't supposed to KNOW he was the messiah and proclaim himself as such. He was just a man, political leader that would bring Israel back into their promised land and would rule over all nations no longer to be taken captive again. Jesus doesn't do any of this. The messiah was not supposed to be resurrected or any of the things that the gospels authors wrote about Jesus.

This is your post of 181
think I answered this question in my post before you even asked it. There are certain aspects that the NT authors wrote that Jesus fulfilled such as being born in Bethlehem or being a Jew or from the lineage of Judah the son of Jacob. These are trivial though and millions of people have fulfilled these simple requirements throughout Jewish history. The problem is that Jesus doesn't fulfill the actual "meat and taters" portion as I stated earlier. I outlined those requirements in my post. Please go back and read it. Just one of those things was that the messiah was supposed to free Israel from captivity from all nations that they had been scattered to and establish Israel again as a nation, never to be taken captive again. On top of this, the messiah would rule the nations and all nations would serve Israel. These are true messianic requirements. Jesus didn't fulfill those. Jesus cannot fulfill those because Israel is its own nation and no longer captive, and this is not a result of his actions. So yes, Jesus, according to the gospel authors may have fulfilled the birth and genealogical requirements (this is still not verifiable) but he completely failed to do the things that actually mattered and the true actions that would show he was the messiah. Have you ever asked a Jew why they don't believe Jesus to be the messiah? I urge you to do so and you may realize that Jesus truly was not the Hebrew messiah.

Note my question is simple.
1.All your demands that you wrote above that the Messiah must fillfull please reference it to the OT.
2.So far as what is possible or impossible is in Gods hands and as such if Jesus has to return back to earth and fillfull all your demands.Will you as a Jew accept him as your Messiah?
Yes or no.

I dont see why you should have any difficulty in answering such a simple question unless maybe there is something hidden in the closet.


May peace and blessings be upon Jesus,his mother Mary and all mentioned Prophets.
May you all have a peaceful

And, as you can all see, the prevarication continues. Phffft.

[EduChris]

...Jews have the right to think or believe anything WE like without regard to Christian judgments about it.

Precisely. My Jewish cousin thinks and believes he is no less a Jew for having accepted Jesus the Jew as the Jewish Messiah. Get over it.

...If you think that the legitimacy of YOUR beliefs somehow depends on Jewish judgments about it, that is YOUR problem, not ours...

Sure, but I hope you have enough self-awareness to comprehend the converse: the legitimacy of Christian beliefs is not undermined by the fact that a self-selected subsection of Jews (even a majority of such Jews) enforces dogmatic control over what the individual members of that self-selecting subsection of Jews may think or believe about the Jewish Messiah.

...It makes NO sense to hold Jewish beliefs hostage to Christian claims, and I'm not going to agree that it does. Not ever. Get over it...

To paraphrase David Schwimmer, "When was I ever under it?" Far from holding Jewish beliefs hostage, I am merely pointing out the absurdity of some Jews enforcing dogmatic thought control over other Jews simply because of an intra-Jewish debate over whether Jesus the Jew is the Jewish Messiah.

...The reasons for rejecting Jesus as Messiah were never "ad hoc"...

Of course those johnny-come-lately stipulations were an ad hoc response to the growing popularity of Jesus.

...I have acknowledged that a... percentage of Jews...have...converted to Christianity over the centuries...

Yes, and these Jews--including Peter, James, John, all of the other earliest disciples, Paul, and countless other first-century Jews--"converted to Christianity" for one reason: they believed that Jesus the Jew was indeed the Jewish Messiah.

... how should the issue of whether or not Jesus was the Jewish Messiah be finally determined?[/b] What other way IS there, other than comparing his performance and accomplishments with what Jewish teachings and tradition have had to say about the Messiah for three or four thousand years?...

I would say that if the reasons why the earliest followers of Jesus ultimately believed him to be the Jewish Messiah are valid--and the bodily resurrection of Jesus is the key and capstone of all those reasons--then Jesus is indeed the Jewish Messiah. If you want to bring up the matter of Jewish tradition, that cuts both ways. Moreover, Jewish tradition is filled with accounts of the overwhelming majority of Jews "getting it wrong" over and over again (Deuteronomy 31:27).

...Jews have the right to embrace Christianity ...But let's not pretend that it's still Judaism, because it isn't...

And let's stop the silly unqualified assertions that Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah. Some Jews did, others did not. That has always been the case, from the first century up til the present day.

[cnorman18]

Of course those johnny-come-lately stipulations were an ad hoc response to the growing popularity of Jesus.

Prove that assertion with documentation from primary sources or retract it. It's an agenda-based polemic claim that implies dishonesty and the suppression of known facts by the Jewish leadership, and it is wholly false. If you can't document it, it didn't happen.

You will also admit and retract your deceptive tactic of repeatedly putting words in my mouth and pretending to object to things i've never thought nor said, or this faux debate is ended. You have continued to indulge in that deception even after repeated warnings. Did you not take my last post seriously?

[EduChris]

...Prove that assertion with documentation...If you can't document it, it didn't happen...

Tell me please, what formal stipulations were present within the various Judaisms of the first century prior to the death of Jesus?

Then tell me please, what formal stipulations were subsequently incorporated within the fragment of Judaism that survived the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and when did these formal stipulations become incorporated?

Finally, tell me please, why were those formal stipulations incorporated?

...your deceptive tactic of repeatedly putting words in my mouth...

Take a deep breath and relax. It is not I who have put words in your mouth, but rather you have been putting words in my mouth.