A question for christians

[thenormalyears]

You believe in a God that is all knowing, he knows the past, present and the future, correct?

[Cephus]

Isn't this by itself without the added evidence of the meaning of "I AM" vs "I am", enough to show he claimed divinity?

No, it only shows the authors of the gospels are saying he claims divinity and they are not consistent.

And around we go. . . .

But he's right, the only claims for divinity are the ones written by someone else. You have no clue what Jesus actually said, you have to take it on faith that what's recorded in the Gospels are even remotely close to what the historical Jesus, if there was one, actually said, taught and believed.

[achilles12604]

Isn't this by itself without the added evidence of the meaning of "I AM" vs "I am", enough to show he claimed divinity?

No, it only shows the authors of the gospels are saying he claims divinity and they are not consistent.

And around we go. . . .

But he's right, the only claims for divinity are the ones written by someone else. You have no clue what Jesus actually said, you have to take it on faith that what's recorded in the Gospels are even remotely close to what the historical Jesus, if there was one, actually said, taught and believed.

You realize then that every single person from history becomes just as suspect if you take this line of reasoning.

All of Ceasers speaches shoulc be thrown out totally.

Nothing from any of the Greek thinkers, should be passed on.

The accounts of Alexander should all be tossed aside.

Speaches from our own presidents would be tossed aside except that today's technology has the ability to record exactly.

This line of thinking, evenly and fairly applied, would erase most of historical ideas and speaches.

Of course I don't expect any atheist to apply it fairly. After all, the Christians must be suspected of lying, just because they are Christians, right? Isn't that the wonderful atheist logic I have seen over and over?

[Cathar1950]

You realize then that every single person from history becomes just as suspect if you take this line of reasoning.

This line of thinking, evenly and fairly applied, would erase most of historical ideas and speaches.

Of course I don't expect any atheist to apply it fairly. After all, the Christians must be suspected of lying, just because they are Christians, right? Isn't that the wonderful atheist logic I have seen over and over?

If you want to toss everything out that is your faulty reasoning.
The claim that you have the exact words and meaning of Jesus is in question and the sources, not all writings. The other gospels used Mark's work and Mark has flaws. Other gospel writers corrected and changed his words and sometimes his meaning. Not one of the writers were there or eyewitnesses. Others claimed Augustus was the "son of god" and savior. Do you not question them? Should we toss out everything written about him because others said he was a god?
Jesus was for the kingdom of YHWH I doubt he clained to be YHWH.
The Ebonite tradition is Chistian and disagree with Pauls Christology.

[bernee51]

All of Ceasers speaches shoulc be thrown out totally.

Which of Caeser's speeches are you referring to? And which Caeser? If they have not been recorded as a verbatim account they should of course bw suspect - unless there is secondary evidence. This is not the case with the wods of the alledged Jesus.

Nothing from any of the Greek thinkers, should be passed on.

Except that there is more than one written evidence of their existence and in many cases their words.

The accounts of Alexander should all be tossed aside.

Uncorroborated ones - yes. What corroborates the gospels?

Speaches from our own presidents would be tossed aside except that today's technology has the ability to record exactly.

In the case of the current one...

This line of thinking, evenly and fairly applied, would erase most of historical ideas and speaches.

Oh wonderful...a slippery slope fallacy to round it all off.

After all, the Christians must be suspected of lying, just because they are Christians, right?

Why do you hold your feelo believers in such low regard?

[Cathar1950]

achilles12604 wrote:
After all, the Christians must be suspected of lying, just because they are Christians, right?

I don’t think they were actually lying, as we understand lying. It was a declaration of faith and read to the believers. Paul admits he took believers by deceit. We don’t know what he lied about but he does admit it. There are church fathers that felt anything was justified to create and maintain believers. I don’t think you can blame all the Christian gentiles for what others told them. Look at the Branch Davidians, was he lying, crazy or both? Just because his followers believed him does not make him correct.
Did the space ship pick up those people with sneakers and change?
I think the apology that they couldn’t have been lying or that others would have argued against them is lame and not much of an apology. I find it easier to believe some one that just believes as opposed to some one that thinks they have proof that their particular reading and interpretation is the best and only truth.

[Cephus]

You realize then that every single person from history becomes just as suspect if you take this line of reasoning.

Then you have no idea what this "line of reasoning" is. Certainly there are a lot of historical personages who wrote and recorded their own thoughts, you certainly can't claim their existence is suspect because they left evidence of their own existence. Further, there are plenty of people who are demonstrable direct eyewitnesses, usually multiple direct eyewitnesses who write what they saw and their accounts substantively agree. Absolutely none of that is true of Jesus.

[Easyrider]

You realize then that every single person from history becomes just as suspect if you take this line of reasoning.

Then you have no idea what this "line of reasoning" is. Certainly there are a lot of historical personages who wrote and recorded their own thoughts, you certainly can't claim their existence is suspect because they left evidence of their own existence. Further, there are plenty of people who are demonstrable direct eyewitnesses, usually multiple direct eyewitnesses who write what they saw and their accounts substantively agree. Absolutely none of that is true of Jesus.

Wrong.

Eyewitness Accounts and Testimony

Luke 24:30 - When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"
33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

Luke 24:36 - While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." 37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

John 20:16 - Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher). 17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' " 18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.

John 20:19 - On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

John 20:26 - A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

1 Corinthians 15:3 - For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also…

Acts 1:1 - In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

1 John 4:14 - And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

2 Peter 1:16 - We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Luke 1:1 - Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

Matthew 28:5 - The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." 8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

[Goat]

You realize then that every single person from history becomes just as suspect if you take this line of reasoning.

Then you have no idea what this "line of reasoning" is. Certainly there are a lot of historical personages who wrote and recorded their own thoughts, you certainly can't claim their existence is suspect because they left evidence of their own existence. Further, there are plenty of people who are demonstrable direct eyewitnesses, usually multiple direct eyewitnesses who write what they saw and their accounts substantively agree. Absolutely none of that is true of Jesus.

Wrong.

Eyewitness Accounts and Testimony

Luke 24:30 - When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"
33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

Luke 24:36 - While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." 37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

John 20:16 - Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher). 17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' " 18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.

John 20:19 - On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

John 20:26 - A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

1 Corinthians 15:3 - For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also…

Acts 1:1 - In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

1 John 4:14 - And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

2 Peter 1:16 - We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Luke 1:1 - Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

Matthew 28:5 - The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." 8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

And not one of those books were written by an eye witness. They might have CLAIMED eyewittnesses, but a story is a story is a story.

For that matter, most of those quotes were written decades after the fact.

[AB]

You realize then that every single person from history becomes just as suspect if you take this line of reasoning.

Then you have no idea what this "line of reasoning" is. Certainly there are a lot of historical personages who wrote and recorded their own thoughts, you certainly can't claim their existence is suspect because they left evidence of their own existence. Further, there are plenty of people who are demonstrable direct eyewitnesses, usually multiple direct eyewitnesses who write what they saw and their accounts substantively agree. Absolutely none of that is true of Jesus.

Wrong.

Eyewitness Accounts and Testimony

Luke 24:30 - When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"
33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

Luke 24:36 - While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." 37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

John 20:16 - Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher). 17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' " 18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.

John 20:19 - On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

John 20:26 - A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

1 Corinthians 15:3 - For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also…

Acts 1:1 - In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

1 John 4:14 - And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

2 Peter 1:16 - We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Luke 1:1 - Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

Matthew 28:5 - The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." 8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

And not one of those books were written by an eye witness. They might have CLAIMED eyewittnesses, but a story is a story is a story.

For that matter, most of those quotes were written decades after the fact.

Wrong. The authors of the gospels were the closest to Jesus. Each book written at different times, by different wittnesess, confirm the same account. Check it out man! Yeah, they are written from differenent people(coming from their own perspecitive of the account) that experenced what Jesus was. With that, none contradicted another. All 4 books confirm what Jesus was/did/and is.

[Goat]

And not one of those books were written by an eye witness. They might have CLAIMED eyewittnesses, but a story is a story is a story.

For that matter, most of those quotes were written decades after the fact.

Wrong. The authors of the gospels were the closest to Jesus. Each book written at different times, by different wittnesess, confirm the same account. Check it out man! Yeah, they are written from differenent people(coming from their own perspecitive of the account) that experenced what Jesus was. With that, none contradicted another. All 4 books confirm what Jesus was/did/and is.

[/quote]

No, you are quite wrong Lets look at the one that is acknowleged to be the first written of the synoptic gospels.
That would be the Gospel of Mark.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/mark.html

Nevertheless, even though the author may have been a disciple of Peter at some point, the author of the Gospel of Mark needn't have limited himself to Peter's preaching for his material. The NAB introduction says: "Petrine influence should not, however, be exaggerated. The evangelist has put together various oral and possibly written sources--miracle stories, parables, sayings, stories of controversies, and the passion--so as to speak of the crucified Messiah for Mark's own day."

A Marginal Jew, v. 2: Buy at amazon.com! John P. Meier provides an example in which the author of Mark shows himself to be dependent on oral tradition. The story of the feeding of the multitude is found twice in Mark and once in John. Meier writes (A Marginal Jew, v. 2, pp. 965-6): "This suggests a long and complicated tradition history reaching back to the early days of the first Christian generation. Prior to Mark's Gospel there seems to have been two cycles of traditions about Jesus' ministry in Galilee, each one beginning with one version of the feeding miracle (Mk 6:32-44 and Mk 8:1-10). Before these cycles were created, the two versions of the feeding would have circulated as independent units, the first version attracting to itself the story of Jesus' walking on the water (a development also witnessed in John 6), while the second version did not receive such an elaboration. Behind all three versions of the miracle story would have stood some primitive form."

Who Wrote the Gospels? : Buy at amazon.com! The author of the Gospel of Mark does indeed seem to lack first-hand knowledge of the geography of Palestine. Randel Helms writes concerning Mark 11:1 (Who Wrote the Gospels?, p. 6): "Anyone approaching Jerusalem from Jericho would come first to Bethany and then Bethphage, not the reverse. This is one of several passages showing that Mark knew little about Palestine; we must assume, Dennis Nineham argues, that 'Mark did not know the relative positions of these two villages on the Jericho road' (1963, 294-295). Indeed, Mark knew so little about the area that he described Jesus going from Tyrian territory 'by way of Sidon to the Sea of Galilee through the territory of the Ten Towns' (Mark 7:31); this is similar to saying that one goes from London to Paris by way of Edinburgh and Rome. The simplist solution, says Nineham, is that 'the evangelist was not directly acquainted with Palestine' (40)."

This shows while Mark might have been relying on oral tradition, in no way was Mark a witness.

Both Matthew and Luke depend on Mark. Mark never saw Jerusalum. That means, he was depending on stories. Since Matthew and Luke copied from Mark, they were copying from someone who was decades distant from the events, and who never was in Jerusalum to begin with.