I am seriously questioning my atheism

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Haven

I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Disclaimer: This post may be out of place on the Christianity and Apologetics forum (even though it does have some relation to Christianity), if it is, I apologize and ask that it be moved to a more appropriate place on the forum. However, I do intend this thread to be a discussion, if not a debate, so I felt this was the best place for it.

As many of you know, I am an ex-evangelical Christian and a current atheist. By "atheist," I mean I lack belief in god(s) of any kind, although I do not assert that there are definitely no gods. Since departing from Christianity, everything has made so much more sense: an eternal Universe (defined as the totality of natural existence) explained existence, evolution explained the diversity of life on earth, the absence of god(s) explained the problems of evil, inconsistent revelation, and so on.

However, there is one thing that I have been unable to account for under atheism: morality. Atheists almost invariably state that moral values and duties are not objective facts, but are simply subjective statements of preference and have no ontological value. That is, of course, until we are presented with cases of true evil, such as the Holocaust, the atrocities of Pol Pot, or the horrible psychopathic serial killings of individuals like Jeffery Dahmer. Then we as atheists tacitly appeal to objective moral values and duties, saying that individuals who commit should be severely punished (even executed) for doing "evil," saying that they "knew right from wrong." But if right and wrong are simply statements of subjective opinion, then how can we say that others knew "right from wrong" and are accountable for their actions? If relativism is true, they simply had differing opinions from the majority of human beings. However, it seems obvious to me (and to the vast majority of others, theist and atheist alike) that this is absurd -- the monsters who carried out the aforementioned acts really, objectively did evil.

Given this, the only reasonable conclusion is that moral facts and imperatives exist.

However, atheism appears to offer no framework for moral facts. Because of this, a few weeks ago, I started up a discussion on Wielenbergian moral realism, which states that objective moral values are simply "brute facts" that exist without any explanation. However, others rightly pointed out that the existence of "brute facts" is ontologically problematic and that the best explanation (on atheism) is that morality is simply subjective. Additionally, even if atheistic moral facts existed, the Humeian problem of deriving an "ought" from an "is" would preclude them from acting as moral imperatives; commands which human beings are obligated to follow.

In light of these airtight logical objections to atheistic moral realism, I was forced to abandon my position on moral facts and tentatively adopt moral relativism. However, relativism still seems problematic. After all, if morality is subjective, no one person can accuse another of failing to recognize the difference between "right and wrong," however, it is obvious to me (and, I would suspect, to other atheists as well) that right or wrong really objectively (not subjectively) exist.

The only rational conclusion I can seem to come up with is that there is a (are) transcendent moral lawgiver(s) who both grounds moral facts and issues binding moral commands on all humanity; i.e., God(s). This echoes evangelical Christian philosopher William Lane Craig's moral argument, which syllogism reads:
WLC wrote:Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists
Premises 1 and 2 seem bulletproof -- (1) was demonstrated earlier in this post, leaving (2) as the only premise to attack. However, (2) seems to be as obvious as a hand in front of my face. The conclusion necessarily follows from (1) and (2), so is there any rational reason for me to reject the conclusion of the argument?

Remember, I am no believer of any kind. I am a staunch, educated, informed atheist, and I am well aware of the philosophical arguments against God(s), such as the problem of evil, the dysteleological argument, the problem of omniscience, etc. I'm also well aware of the plentiful empirical evidence against the existence of God(s), for instance, evolution, mind-body physicalism, etc. These are the reasons I reconverted from Christianity in the first place. However, I don't see way around this problem other than to accept either that our apparently obvious sense of moral facts is somehow mistaken, or that (a) theistic being(s) exist.

Debate question: Are my issues with atheism legitimate? Can atheism provide a coherent moral framework other than nihilism, relativism, or subjectivism? Do these problems really present evidence for theism? Is William Lane Craig right? Is this a real problem for atheism, or are my (our) emotions simply overriding my (our) rationality?

Feel free to present evidence for or against atheism, Christianity, or any religious or nonreligious perspective in this thread.

Nox
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #281

Post by Nox »

As a fellow atheist, my morality comes from empathy.

I would be devastated if someone I loved was killed. I would not like to be killed. Therefore, I don't kill.

I would be upset if someone I loved was stolen from. I don't want to be stolen from. Therefore, I don't steal.

Etc.

It's that simple.

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Autodidact
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Post #282

Post by Autodidact »

If your mind is that made up, why do you even want to have such a conversation with me or any other Christian regarding the existence of God? Isn't it just a waste of time? What type of evidence would convince you that hasn't already been presented somewhere in this board?
Well, it's always possible that you may yet see reason, so it's not a waste of my time.

I'll decide how to spend my time, thank you. Since your mind is made up, I assume, and you believe that debate when your mind is made up is a waste of time, why are you wasting your time?

The type of evidence that would convince me is the same type of evidence that I--and you--use in every other area of our lives. Do you have any?

spayne

Post #283

Post by spayne »

Haven wrote:I find it frustrating when evangelical Christians bring up "God's justice" whenever one mentions the suffering of millions of people in this world. "Justice" only applies to those that are actually guilty; when "justice" affects the innocent, it ceases to be just.

There are millions of malnourished and starving children in this world right now -- what crime did they commit? What sin did they take part in? What did those kids do to deserve to be on the receiving end of "God's justice?"
Who is bringing up the justice of God in relation to those who suffer? I find it's usually the other way around. I keep trying to express how loving God is, and over and over again the atheists seem intent to talk about God as an evil entity.

spayne

Post #284

Post by spayne »

Autodidact wrote:
If your mind is that made up, why do you even want to have such a conversation with me or any other Christian regarding the existence of God? Isn't it just a waste of time? What type of evidence would convince you that hasn't already been presented somewhere in this board?
Well, it's always possible that you may yet see reason, so it's not a waste of my time.

I'll decide how to spend my time, thank you. Since your mind is made up, I assume, and you believe that debate when your mind is made up is a waste of time, why are you wasting your time?

The type of evidence that would convince me is the same type of evidence that I--and you--use in every other area of our lives. Do you have any?
I do see reason. I choose not to go into a great level of detail in my conversations with you because of your interactions with me in the past. This might come as a surprise to you, but I really don't enjoy being called a "bigot" or "ignorant," which are two of several names you have thrown my way in former debates. I'm sure you see my point.

Haven

Post #285

Post by Haven »

spayne wrote: Who is bringing up the justice of God in relation to those who suffer? I find it's usually the other way around. I keep trying to express how loving God is, and over and over again the atheists seem intent to talk about God as an evil entity.
The reason some atheists talk about God as an evil entity is that only an evil entity could sit idly by and ignore the prayers of starving children for relief, knowing that he has the power to stop their suffering. That is what, in my opinion, seems evil about God.

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Post #286

Post by Autodidact »

spayne wrote:
Autodidact wrote:
If your mind is that made up, why do you even want to have such a conversation with me or any other Christian regarding the existence of God? Isn't it just a waste of time? What type of evidence would convince you that hasn't already been presented somewhere in this board?
Well, it's always possible that you may yet see reason, so it's not a waste of my time.

I'll decide how to spend my time, thank you. Since your mind is made up, I assume, and you believe that debate when your mind is made up is a waste of time, why are you wasting your time?

The type of evidence that would convince me is the same type of evidence that I--and you--use in every other area of our lives. Do you have any?
I do see reason.
Can you perhaps share it with us?
I choose not to go into a great level of detail in my conversations with you because of your interactions with me in the past. This might come as a surprise to you, but I really don't enjoy being called a "bigot" or "ignorant," which are two of several names you have thrown my way in former debates. I'm sure you see my point.
It is entirely your option whether to talk with me or not.

My advice, if you don't want to be called a bigot, is not to express bigotry.

As for ignorance, it's nothing to be ashamed of. I'm ignorant of many more things than I am knowledgeable. I just take care not to claim knowledge where I lack it.

Now, did you want to discuss the thread topic, or me?

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Autodidact
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Post #287

Post by Autodidact »

Haven wrote:
spayne wrote: Who is bringing up the justice of God in relation to those who suffer? I find it's usually the other way around. I keep trying to express how loving God is, and over and over again the atheists seem intent to talk about God as an evil entity.
The reason some atheists talk about God as an evil entity is that only an evil entity could sit idly by and ignore the prayers of starving children for relief, knowing that he has the power to stop their suffering. That is what, in my opinion, seems evil about God.
That and ordering His followers to stab babies to death. That's the one that bothers me.

spayne

Post #288

Post by spayne »

Haven wrote:
spayne wrote: Who is bringing up the justice of God in relation to those who suffer? I find it's usually the other way around. I keep trying to express how loving God is, and over and over again the atheists seem intent to talk about God as an evil entity.
The reason some atheists talk about God as an evil entity is that only an evil entity could sit idly by and ignore the prayers of starving children for relief, knowing that he has the power to stop their suffering. That is what, in my opinion, seems evil about God.
Well, I suppose one of the many things that stumps me about this one is how atheists claim that a being they actually don't believe exists is evil. It's illogical. If you don't believe in the God who is the subject of this debate thread then by default you don't believe the Bible. And if you don't believe the Bible, why do you care what it says?

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Post #289

Post by Autodidact »

spayne wrote:
Haven wrote:
spayne wrote: Who is bringing up the justice of God in relation to those who suffer? I find it's usually the other way around. I keep trying to express how loving God is, and over and over again the atheists seem intent to talk about God as an evil entity.
The reason some atheists talk about God as an evil entity is that only an evil entity could sit idly by and ignore the prayers of starving children for relief, knowing that he has the power to stop their suffering. That is what, in my opinion, seems evil about God.
Well, I suppose one of the many things that stumps me about this one is how atheists claim that a being they actually don't believe exists is evil. It's illogical. If you don't believe in the God who is the subject of this debate thread then by default you don't believe the Bible. And if you don't believe the Bible, why do you care what it says?
It's not complicated. Is Simon Legree evil? Professor Moriarty? Fictional characters can be evil.

I care because you care, and your beliefs affect my life.

Also I'm interested in the truth.

You seem more interested in discouraging us from debating than in debating us.

spayne

Post #290

Post by spayne »

Autodidact wrote:
spayne wrote:
Autodidact wrote:
If your mind is that made up, why do you even want to have such a conversation with me or any other Christian regarding the existence of God? Isn't it just a waste of time? What type of evidence would convince you that hasn't already been presented somewhere in this board?
Well, it's always possible that you may yet see reason, so it's not a waste of my time.

I'll decide how to spend my time, thank you. Since your mind is made up, I assume, and you believe that debate when your mind is made up is a waste of time, why are you wasting your time?

The type of evidence that would convince me is the same type of evidence that I--and you--use in every other area of our lives. Do you have any?
I do see reason.
Can you perhaps share it with us?
I choose not to go into a great level of detail in my conversations with you because of your interactions with me in the past. This might come as a surprise to you, but I really don't enjoy being called a "bigot" or "ignorant," which are two of several names you have thrown my way in former debates. I'm sure you see my point.
It is entirely your option whether to talk with me or not.

My advice, if you don't want to be called a bigot, is not to express bigotry.

As for ignorance, it's nothing to be ashamed of. I'm ignorant of many more things than I am knowledgeable. I just take care not to claim knowledge where I lack it.

Now, did you want to discuss the thread topic, or me?
You are an interesting person to me Autodidact. I am sure that behind all of your offensive language, which you seem to be totally unapologetic in stating, you are a beautiful person with a wonderful heart. No, I don't have any interesting in continuing this conversation with you. But I will state that, if by some unusual circumstance, we had an opportunity to actually sit down for tea or coffee and talk in person, it might be an illuminating conversation. I assure you I am not the person you seem to have painted me to be. Cheers.

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