How do we know a sinner when we see one?

[Argenta]

A sinner is one who transgresses God’s law. But what is God’s law? Would any two Christians agree on exactly what this law is? Presumably, the Ten Commandments are included but what about the laws set out in Deuteronomy et al? Is wearing a garment made of two fibres a sin? Am I a sinner if I refuse to stone my unruly child? If we could agree what God’s law is we may be able to establish if all humans really are sinners.

Christianity teaches that all humans are sinners as a principle when in fact it is a question that admits of an empirical answer. Does Christianity say this because those who are free of sin do not need Jesus Christ?

If only the Ten Commandments are included it may be that some people are free of sin. The truth is we cannot know until we define god’s laws explicitly. Can we compile a comprehensive list of sins? And if we can, I wonder if anyone would truly wish to be sin-free?

Argenta

[Argenta]

Wooooo there. Did i say that abortion was a trivial matter? No. Abortion is murder. Worse than that abortion is murder of the innocent. God made it clear He hates those who are responsible for the slaying of innocent blood.

Would it be a sin to help a loved one kill herself when she is in constant pain and suffering from a terminal illness and wishes only to die. Let's assume your motive is kindess and love and not anything else. This would seem to be a case of murder AND love. Would that be OK?

Also the homosexual act is an abomination to God. So both are salvation matters but like abortion, one who has engaged in homosexual activity can be forgiven it through Jesus.

How do you know homosexuality is a salvation matter? And why do you pick on this as a sin which, I believe is only condemned in the OT, and not all the other things that god condemns in the OT?

Argenta

[Flail]

Adstar wrote:

As for people being offended by my beliefs, I get that from every forum i have visited. They love me then they hate me while another will hate me first them love me. And on most christian forums i either leave because what i am saying is being deleted/oppressed. Or they boot me. The longer you stay in most Christian forums the closer you come to the issue on which the forum leader has a personal sensitivity too.

All Praise The Ancient of Days[/quote]

I fail to see any relevance to the OP in the above diatribe.

[Flail]

If you where fully engaged in a homosexual relationship then you would be showing that your claim to Love God was a lie. If you loved God you would bow to His wisdom and acknowledge that Homosexual act is an abomination.

You're confusing me Adstar. On the one hand you say, love god and love your neighbour and there is no need for a list of sins. On the other hand you say if I loved god I would avoid homosexual relationships because it is one of the sins listed in the OT.

So should I observe the list of sins in the OT or not? And if I do should I observe all of them? If not, how do I know which ones I should observe?

You'll need to make this a bit simpler for me.

Argenta

Might be hard to make things simple.

Jesus never made any statement changing what the OT said on the Homosexual act. He did make comments of Food. Revealing that it was not what into mans mouths that defiled them (food water act) but what came out of mans mouths (evil talk)

But again talking about kosher food laws of the OT. I believe that if a person follows the Laws on Kosher food and food preparation, they will have a long and healthy life ( well as long as they don’t get hit by a train, no diet can help one in that situation ) I believe the Kosher Diet of the OT is the best diet ever produced.

But as i have already said. Eating proper foods does not make one moral it just makes you healthy. Same as eating improper foods do not make you evil it just makes you unhealthy.

But again for a Christian the Holy Spirit will guide them. When we have the Holy Spirit we can read and understand scriptures and know what we should do.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

It is so much easier to find fault with our neighbors while disregarding our own. First, tend your own garden. Your judgment of other peoples manner of showing affection or satisfying sexual desires as sin is both shameful and irrelevant Perhaps you should keep such opinions to yourself. If some God has a problem with sexual orientation, let Him handle it. Consider the possibility that bringing someone else's unplanned and unwanted child into the world on your say so might add to suffering, not relieve it. Jesus openly forgave someone engaged in repeated acts of illicit sex while rebuking those who were ready to judge her....take a hint.

[Adstar]

Wooooo there. Did i say that abortion was a trivial matter? No. Abortion is murder. Worse than that abortion is murder of the innocent. God made it clear He hates those who are responsible for the slaying of innocent blood.

Would it be a sin to help a loved one kill herself when she is in constant pain and suffering from a terminal illness and wishes only to die. Let's assume your motive is kindess and love and not anything else. This would seem to be a case of murder AND love. Would that be OK?

I don't see anything wrong with the intention of preventing pain. But you don't need to kill a person to prevent pain. Especally these days when we have the drugs to remove pain. There are a lot of good drugs that are banned from being used because they are classified as illegal narcotics. The movement towards euthinasia has got nothing to do with saving people from pain. (althought that is the trogan horse arguement put forward to get it accepted) It is about saving governements for paliative health care costs.

Also the homosexual act is an abomination to God. So both are salvation matters but like abortion, one who has engaged in homosexual activity can be forgiven it through Jesus.

How do you know homosexuality is a salvation matter? And why do you pick on this as a sin which, I believe is only condemned in the OT, and not all the other things that god condemns in the OT?

Argenta

Firstly sodomy is only a salvation matter when people believe and declare it to be ok/Good. Homosexuals that acknowledge that it is wrong and believe Jesus have nothing to fear, they are saved sinners like me.

So homosexuality like all other sins does not cause anyone to be doomed. In fact because homosexuality has been mostly declared and believed by the masses down through history to be sin i expect to be spending eternity With a higher proportion of ex homosexuals with God then the percentage hear on earth now.

Christians don't make a big song and dance about Homosexuality because it is more evil or more sin than others. Christians make a big song and dance because today popular political correctness culture is teaching that Homosexuality is justified and Good. Its a reaction. It's an attempt to save homosexuals from the Lake of Fire. So form a Christians POV the ones teaching the acceptance of homosexuality as being ok are the greatest enemies in this world a homosexual can have.


Also you said that homosexuality was only condemned in the OT, the following scripture is from the NT.

Romans 1
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

You can even see Lesbianism in that scripture as well as Homosexuality.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

If you where fully engaged in a homosexual relationship then you would be showing that your claim to Love God was a lie. If you loved God you would bow to His wisdom and acknowledge that Homosexual act is an abomination.

You're confusing me Adstar. On the one hand you say, love god and love your neighbour and there is no need for a list of sins. On the other hand you say if I loved god I would avoid homosexual relationships because it is one of the sins listed in the OT.

So should I observe the list of sins in the OT or not? And if I do should I observe all of them? If not, how do I know which ones I should observe?

You'll need to make this a bit simpler for me.

Argenta

Might be hard to make things simple.

Jesus never made any statement changing what the OT said on the Homosexual act. He did make comments of Food. Revealing that it was not what into mans mouths that defiled them (food water act) but what came out of mans mouths (evil talk)

But again talking about kosher food laws of the OT. I believe that if a person follows the Laws on Kosher food and food preparation, they will have a long and healthy life ( well as long as they don’t get hit by a train, no diet can help one in that situation ) I believe the Kosher Diet of the OT is the best diet ever produced.

But as i have already said. Eating proper foods does not make one moral it just makes you healthy. Same as eating improper foods do not make you evil it just makes you unhealthy.

But again for a Christian the Holy Spirit will guide them. When we have the Holy Spirit we can read and understand scriptures and know what we should do.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

It is so much easier to find fault with our neighbors while disregarding our own. First, tend your own garden. Your judgment of other peoples manner of showing affection or satisfying sexual desires as sin is both shameful and irrelevant Perhaps you should keep such opinions to yourself. If some God has a problem with sexual orientation, let Him handle it. Consider the possibility that bringing someone else's unplanned and unwanted child into the world on your say so might add to suffering, not relieve it. Jesus openly forgave someone engaged in repeated acts of illicit sex while rebuking those who were ready to judge her....take a hint.

The woman He saved confessed her wrong to Him. He saved her as a sign that he would save many such sinners with His Death. And he will save many Homosexuals as well. But first they must be given full warning. I do not judge. I act as a conduit of Gods warning and call to salvation. One must know they have something that needs to be forgiven before they will embrace forgiveness. Telling a homosexual that their state of being is good and ok is probably the most hateful thing anyone can say to them. And I have never said I was without sin myself. I know only too well I am a sinner.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

[Flail]

Adstar wrote:

Christians don't make a big song and dance about Homosexuality because it is more evil or more sin than others. Christians make a big song and dance because today popular political correctness culture is teaching that Homosexuality is justified and Good. Its a reaction. It's an attempt to save homosexuals from the Lake of Fire. So form a Christians POV the ones teaching the acceptance of homosexuality as being ok are the greatest enemies in this world a homosexual can have.

Christians make a big deal about homosexuality because it's about 'sex'...and 'what's going on with the neighbors'...two topics of titillating interest to judgmental busybodies.

[Flail]

If you where fully engaged in a homosexual relationship then you would be showing that your claim to Love God was a lie. If you loved God you would bow to His wisdom and acknowledge that Homosexual act is an abomination.

You're confusing me Adstar. On the one hand you say, love god and love your neighbour and there is no need for a list of sins. On the other hand you say if I loved god I would avoid homosexual relationships because it is one of the sins listed in the OT.

So should I observe the list of sins in the OT or not? And if I do should I observe all of them? If not, how do I know which ones I should observe?

You'll need to make this a bit simpler for me.

Argenta

Might be hard to make things simple.

Jesus never made any statement changing what the OT said on the Homosexual act. He did make comments of Food. Revealing that it was not what into mans mouths that defiled them (food water act) but what came out of mans mouths (evil talk)

But again talking about kosher food laws of the OT. I believe that if a person follows the Laws on Kosher food and food preparation, they will have a long and healthy life ( well as long as they don’t get hit by a train, no diet can help one in that situation ) I believe the Kosher Diet of the OT is the best diet ever produced.

But as i have already said. Eating proper foods does not make one moral it just makes you healthy. Same as eating improper foods do not make you evil it just makes you unhealthy.

But again for a Christian the Holy Spirit will guide them. When we have the Holy Spirit we can read and understand scriptures and know what we should do.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

It is so much easier to find fault with our neighbors while disregarding our own. First, tend your own garden. Your judgment of other peoples manner of showing affection or satisfying sexual desires as sin is both shameful and irrelevant Perhaps you should keep such opinions to yourself. If some God has a problem with sexual orientation, let Him handle it. Consider the possibility that bringing someone else's unplanned and unwanted child into the world on your say so might add to suffering, not relieve it. Jesus openly forgave someone engaged in repeated acts of illicit sex while rebuking those who were ready to judge her....take a hint.

The woman He saved confessed her wrong to Him. He saved her as a sign that he would save many such sinners with His Death. And he will save many Homosexuals as well. But first they must be given full warning. I do not judge. I act as a conduit of Gods warning and call to salvation. One must know they have something that needs to be forgiven before they will embrace forgiveness. Telling a homosexual that their state of being is good and ok is probably the most hateful thing anyone can say to them. And I have never said I was without sin myself. I know only too well I am a sinner.

Let's assume that cheating/lying and homosexuality are both sins. Let's assume the homosexual and the man(everyman) engaged in lying and cheating are Christians. Both attend forgiveness sessions and engage in all the required rituals practices, yet both continue to engage in their respective sins ie, homosexuality and cheating/lying. One of those Christians is you, the other is your neighbor. Why is it that your neighbors private sexual practices are any of your business; why do you insist upon secular laws to govern his sexual behavior and deny him equal protection? Is your continued private lying and cheating any of his business if you violate no laws? Is how he satisfies his sexual desire your business? Are the bizarre heterosexual things you do to satisfy your sexual desires any of his business? Don't we all have more than enough to work on in ourselves than to bother with condemning the otherwise lawful private behavior of others?

[mitty]

A sinner is one who transgresses God’s law. But what is God’s law? Would any two Christians agree on exactly what this law is? Presumably, the Ten Commandments are included but what about the laws set out in Deuteronomy et al? Is wearing a garment made of two fibres a sin? Am I a sinner if I refuse to stone my unruly child? If we could agree what God’s law is we may be able to establish if all humans really are sinners.

Christianity teaches that all humans are sinners as a principle when in fact it is a question that admits of an empirical answer. Does Christianity say this because those who are free of sin do not need Jesus Christ?

If only the Ten Commandments are included it may be that some people are free of sin. The truth is we cannot know until we define god’s laws explicitly. Can we compile a comprehensive list of sins? And if we can, I wonder if anyone would truly wish to be sin-free?

Argenta

When you look upon any human being, you will be looking at a sinner. Look in a mirror and you will be looking at a sinner.

Yes those who are without sin are free from the need of the atonement of the Messiah Jesus. Only the little ones, innocents are without sin.

The Laws of Jesus are 2

Matthew 22
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.�

No one is free from sin. Sin happens when we think it. We do not even need to perform the thoughts for it to be a sin.

Two of the 10 commandments say it is wrong to kill and also it is wrong to commit adultery.

Jesus said:

Matthew 5
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

And it says in 1 John 3

1 John 3
15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

So the law's job is to give the realisation to all men that they are sinners and they all fall short of the perfection needed to enter into Eternity with a Perfect God, in doing this it also reveals the need for Redemption through the Redeemer, the Messiah Jesus.

I wish to be free of sin, But i know that will only come when i am transformed at the resurrection. If one loves their sin then they will not be transformed.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

That's all very well, and very Paulianistic but what about some of those important biblical characters who certainly didn't measure up to these standards. Were they tossed into the pit of fire. Examples are are Joshua's atrocious crimes-against-humanity (Joshua 6:21 8:26) where he murdered innocent children. And David was a murdering, adulterous, homosexual polygamist. Surely he'd have no chance. And even the real Jesus (not the mythical one), he broke the fourth (Matt 12:1-8) and fifth commandments and afterall breaking the fourth was a stoning offense (Numbers 15:32-6).

[The Word]

A sinner is one who transgresses God’s law. But what is God’s law? Would any two Christians agree on exactly what this law is? Presumably, the Ten Commandments are included but what about the laws set out in Deuteronomy et al? Is wearing a garment made of two fibres a sin? Am I a sinner if I refuse to stone my unruly child? If we could agree what God’s law is we may be able to establish if all humans really are sinners.

Christianity teaches that all humans are sinners as a principle when in fact it is a question that admits of an empirical answer. Does Christianity say this because those who are free of sin do not need Jesus Christ?

If only the Ten Commandments are included it may be that some people are free of sin. The truth is we cannot know until we define god’s laws explicitly. Can we compile a comprehensive list of sins? And if we can, I wonder if anyone would truly wish to be sin-free?

Argenta

There's only one sinless man on earth today so everyone else are sinners.

[Adstar]

Adstar wrote:

Christians don't make a big song and dance about Homosexuality because it is more evil or more sin than others. Christians make a big song and dance because today popular political correctness culture is teaching that Homosexuality is justified and Good. Its a reaction. It's an attempt to save homosexuals from the Lake of Fire. So form a Christians POV the ones teaching the acceptance of homosexuality as being ok are the greatest enemies in this world a homosexual can have.

Christians make a big deal about homosexuality because it's about 'sex'...and 'what's going on with the neighbors'...two topics of titillating interest to judgmental busybodies.

Lets compare two sex topics.

Adultery with Homosexuality. Do Christians talk more about Homosexuality than Adultery?... Yes. Why? Simple in our society Adultery is still seen as a bad thing to do. People get hurt when their partner cheats on them and we see what happens sometimes when someone discovers their partner has been unfaithful to them. Some people will kill their partner or the one who committed adultery with them or both.

So society generally knows that Adultery is bad and most people will agree with Christianity on this one, so there is no need for Christians to make a big song and dance about Adultery. But with Homosexuality the very opposite is true. Society in general is being lead to believe there is nothing wrong with it. Therefore the reason why Christians are moved to talk out about it.

In times past when homosexuality was considered wrong by the vast majority of society you would hardly ever hear a sermon on the topic. People just did not talk about it, It was considered shameful to even discuss such a thing.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days