Did Jesus commit suicide?

[sarabellum]

As I browsed through a very interesting OP about the "morality of suicide" I was struck with a thought....
Did Jesus commit suicide.....

At first this idea wasn't slated to be an OP for a number of reasons...
Part of me thought it might seem uncivil....
or offensive....
to some...

I try not to do that....

But my internal conversation relating to my idea has proven to be fruitful and thought provoking so I decided to let her rip....

First of all it occurs to me that I don't know where to draw the line on suicide....
Is there such thing as a moral suicide....
What constitutes a suicide....
Is suicide by cop techniqly a suicide...
Does mental illness negate ones copability in Gods eye for committing suicide...

People commit suicide for many reasons, pain, depression, feeling to good (manic state) high on drugs, financial gain for their family, or they perceive it is for the better good.....

A suicide mission....
Sacrificing ones self for the greater good...
Is this a suicide?
If you know an action will lead to your demise is this taking ones life?

At first I was tempted to put Jesus mission on earth in this category....
Which is to say that the plan was for Jesus to come to earth and die to fix an imbalance that threatened the occupants of earth...

Do suicide bombers actually see there actions as a self termination or does the divine back story, this idea about the need to sacrifice oneself for the greater good, give them an out....


Anyway, basic point, I'm not really sure what constitutes a suicide.....
Part of me sees the logic behind the idea that killing oneself regardless of the perceived need is just that, killing oneself....

Further contemplation along these lines gave birth to a new idea....

Jesus's acts on the earth didn't qualify as a suicide mission...
It was a suicide by cop...
Here's my logic....

I'm on a nuclear submarine....
Something has happened to the reactor....
It is overheating and soon we will all die....
We have to do a manual shut down to survive, only problem being that the room with the off switch is filled with lethal levels of radiation and heat...
I voulenter to die, saving everyone....
Is this a suicide?
Maybe not......

But if it turned out that there was two ways to save the ship, say the path that led to my destruction or a newly discovered way of saving us that only envolved pushing a button and ejecting the core.....
If I still choose the path that leads to my destruction, the suicide mission over the logically way of solving ones problem, is this a suicide....

To me Jesus story falls under this category....

Jesus, if the stories are true, knew he was sent to die....
He could see the future knowing full well that certain actions would lead to his death....
He knew who would betray him...
He decided to sacrifice himself for us....

Jesus is also omnipotent...
Why not just eject the core...
Surely your self termination wasn't the only means to right the sinking ship of humanity.....
Why not just replace yourself with a life like copy on the day of your sacrifice...
A divine copy that would achieve the same salvation benefit but not lead to your death....

Additional can a man kill a God....
Can crucifiction kill a God...
How long does that take....

If Jesus was God would any amount of poking and prodding bring about his death...
If he was omnipotent it seems like you could theoretically pearce his side from now till the cows came home and not bring about his death...
Or did christ choose to self terminate....
Letting go of his spirit....

Otherwise it was a pretty quick for a crucifiction.....

Anyway thats about it......
Answer one or all....

Or none...

P.S. I still have not been able to save to a draft and often time my spelling errors don't show up on the spell check, and I'm in a hurry...
For the spelling errors I apologize....
(Lets face it I'm not that smart)

[knutz]

We are never going to agree.

I'm just here to explain the reasons for my faith. Whether anyone here agrees with me or not is besides the point.

You base your interpretation of the Bible on the Dogma of the Catholic Church. I base mine on historians... to debate this from these two points of view is pointless.

Lol! If the assumption is that you are trying to convert me or I you, then I agree.

But I'm not here to convert you. I'm simply here to present my ideas so that others may consider them and come to faith in God.

And yes Jerusalem exists. Naming a place does not make it historical.

Its existence is a fact mentioned in Scripture which can be verified by many independent and objective means.

Most of the authors are unknown

I challenge this. Please provide your evidence.

or guesses mixed with forgeries.

And this. Please provide your evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible

Debate by web link?

Here's the rebuttal:
http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/bo ... ospels.pdf

I'll just take one, the very first, because addressing each of the errors in this list would derail the thread:

There are difficulties, and they are explained in the same article. But there is no absolute proof that the genealogies contradict. Only that they come by different lineage and converge with Joseph.

Again we will never agree so long as you rest your belief on Church Tradition over fact.

This particular tradition explains the apparent discrepancy.

That is your subjective interpretation of the evidence based upon your presuppositions. As I view the evidence, Jesus died to save us from our sins. Yes, He knew He was going to be killed by men who refused to believe in Him. But that is not suicide. That is sacrifice. Therefore, Jesus is the first Christian martyr.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Lets try this again...

Ok

God created everything and knows the future.
God created Man.
Man killed Jesus.
God knew every detail surrounding Jesus' death.
Jesus is God.
Jesus was a sacrifice to God.
Jesus was a sacrifice to himself.

There are three Divine Persons in One God. Jesus, the Son of the Father, offered Himself as a sacrifice to the Father for the salvation of our souls.

Essentially, what He did is let mankind off the hook. The death of the Testator ends the Covenant. God died on the Cross therefore the Old Testament was fulfilled and the promises needed to be paid.

Testament:
2nd definition:
will: a legal document declaring a person's wishes regarding the disposal of their property when they die
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

So... He sacrificed himself to himself and was killed by his own creation. Again... sounds a lot like suicide... or was he not God?

Again, that is your interpretation of the evidence. Mine agrees with the teaching of the Church. Jesus Christ knew that He would suffer and be killed:
Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

And He layed down His life for those He loved:
Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Therefore, Jesus is the first Christian martyr.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Well, there's so much to talk about on this one, it's almost completely off topic.

It's not a trinity, it's a duo. The holy spirit is just another word for "The Father". Of course, I may be convinced otherwise. I'll need to read a passage that refers to all three as separate entities.

I agree that Jesus kew he would suffer and die, but don't agree that he knew the details. He was made flesh. He's not a god any more, and needs to borrow power from god the spirit (as opposed to god the flesh - two separate people)

I agree that he didn't want to die. He was dragging his feet. That's why god needed Judas -our true saviour - to tell the romans where he was. Judas has sacrificed his good name, he's still reviled to this day. He truly was a matyr.

So it wasn't suicide by cop, it was homicide by cop. The roman's were just god's weapons, and Judas his second.

[sarabellum]

I'm not convinced either way...

When I close my eyes and try to play along with the story this is what I see...
God on his thrown of power...
Thinking....

"Those humans really got themselves in a bind over this sin deal."

"Perhaps its time for the divine to shine."

God springs into action...
Coming up with an awesome plan that at least "looks" like suicide on paper...

Send himself to earth, hang out with the right crowd, patiently waiting until the day he will be tortured and crucified....

That was the plan in the beginning...
Before God ever visited the earth in the form of Jesus..

God decided to kill himself....?

[EasternSP]

He didn't commit suicide anymore than the Rev. ML King did, although Jesus did know his fate.

Nonsense. MLK did not know he was going to be assassinated.

Yes, he did.

On the day that John F. Kennedy was assassinated, Coulton remembers King saying as he watched the television, "That's the way I'm going to go.'"

"He just knew it, and he felt it. That's the way he was going to go," said Coulton.

King was assassinated five years later on April 4, 1968.

http://www.army.mil/-news/2011/01/15/50 ... r-king-jr/

By definition, martyrs know they are putting their life in danger for their cause:
A martyr (Greek: , mrtys, "witness"; stem -, mrtyr-) is somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce a belief or cause, usually religious.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr

Jesus knew he was going to die... or was he not God? Did he not know how things would unfold? MLK knew he was a protagonist and a target definitely but he did not know the time or the place. Jesus on the other hand would have or you cannot claim him to be God.

Or wait... did God send him without the knowledge so in human form he didn't know... but then he is God and would have known before coming... but then he made himself forget... but then...

You can justify anything you like but it does not make the myth any more rational.

Its not a myth. It is documented history.

I thought so too, but in this very forum I read a debate stating that the Roman document that noted Jesus' crucifixion was written around 400AD, presumably by a Christian. I googled it and found accounts that said, no it was 180AD etc.

There is no documented fact that Jesus lived, died or was resurrected. Even the "Shroud of Turin" cannot be used for that - Jesus most likely was clean shaven. Fashion of the day. And the shroud shows a beard.

Clean shaven? He didn't have a place to lay his head but he was in step with the fashion of the day? The gospel account mentions something about his beard being plucked. How does that reconcile with your statement?