Are there any prophecies in the Bible?

[notachance]

It seems to me that the go-to "proof" that the Bible is divinely inspired are prophecies.

So I was hoping that somebody would give me an example of a prophecy that might prove the supernatural nature of the Bible.

I will write below a few criteria that I think any alleged prophecy must meet in order to qualify as "evidence of supernatural nature of the Bible"

1) The prophecy must have been demonstrably written down before the event it predicts.
A prophecy is a statement about the future, not about the past.

For example, if I wrote today, in 2011, "I hereby make the prophecy that in 2008, Barack Obama will be elected President of the United States", that is NOT a prophecy, because I'm "predicting" an event that actually already happened.

Similarly, if a 350 AD manuscript (for example the Codex Sinaiticus) talked about some battle that took place in 600BC, that wouldn't be a prediction, it would be a description of something that happened almost 1000 years earlier.

2) A prophecy must have demonstrably actually been made
An example of scenario that would NOT count as a valid prophecy would one where I write down today "10 years before he died, John Lennon told an anonymous author that he would die by being shot in the head". There is no way of verifying that John Lennon ever said that, so it's not a valid prophecy.

3) A predicted event must be reliably documented.
For example, if I said "I predict that tonight I will dream about eating ice cream" and then the next day I say "The prophecy came true! I did dream about ice cream", that would not be an accurate prophecy because it was not reliably documented. Nobody other than me knows if it's actually true that I dreamed about ice-cream.

4) A prophecy must be specific enough that it cannot be adaptable to multiple scenarios that are somewhat likely to happen eventually.
For example if I wrote "There will be a war between Christians and Muslims in the next 100 years", then I'm not making a supernatural prophecy, just an educated guess given the nature of our international relations. In order for it to even be considered as a prophecy, it would have to be something like "On March 2nd 2076, the United States will begin a campaign of drone attacks in Iran, starting with a 3:30 am raid on a military base 20 miles north of Tehran".

Another example of what would not be a prophecy would be something like "the twin towers that collapsed on 9-11 will eventually be rebuilt"

5) In order for a prophecy to be considered proof of the supernatural nature of the Bible, there has to be no other reasonable way to explaining it than by supernatural means.
If you cannot prove that purely natural explanations (chance? self-fulfilling prophecy, forgery) truly cannot account for the prophecy, then your belief in the supernatural cause of the prophecy is no more than a faith statement, and if you are using that do justify your faith, you're engaging in circular logic ("I believe in this baseless claim, because it's supported by another baseless claim").

6) An accurate prophecy cannot be considered evidence of the supernatural if it is surrounded by inaccurate prophecies.
For example if I wrote today the following statements:
"Obama will be elected in 2012"
"Pawlenty will be elected in 2012"
"Romney will be elected in 2012"
"Palin will be elected in 2012"
"Gingrich will be elected in 2012"

And one of them turned out to be correct, that would prove nothing!

7) A prophecy can only be considered evidence of the supernatural if it predicts something that is extremely unlikely.
For example this chart shows that over the last 117 years, in Seattle it has rained on August 2nd 13 times. That means that there is 11.1% chance that it will rain in Seattle on August 2nd of any given year. So if I wrote the prophecy that "On Aug 2nd 2154 it will rain in Seattle", that would be an accurate prediction, but nonetheless not evidence of supernatural powers, simply evidence of the statistical fact that I had a 11.1% chance to be right.

8) The prophecy cannot be an expression of something that many people want to see happen, because the people's will is what drives the prophecy to be fulfilled in that case, and not a supernatural power.
For example, if Martin Luther King had said "I predict that one day a black man will be US President", that would not be the kind of prediction that would prove the supernatural, because in saying that, MLK would just be verbalizing a wish that was to some degree shared by millions of blacks and whites alike. It was simple social pressure from these millions that eventually caused the prophecy to be "fulfilled". If Hillary Clinton said "One day a woman will be President" she will, by saying it, inspire people to try to make that happen. It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.


It's almost 3am and I am a little tired. I may have to add additional bullet points later. It may also be that there is some redundancy, and that the list could be condensed while retaining it's purpose. But I think this is a good start.

Here are my two questions:

1) Do you agree that the requirements above are reasonable, if not explain why not

2) Can you think of any Bible prophecy that meets the requirements above?

(please don't link or quote 100 different prophecies, and don't then leave it to me to look them all up and debunk them all. Start by quoting the SINGLE MOST CONCLUSIVE example of a prophecy, and we can talk about that. Once we've debated it, we can move on to additional examples)

[sarabellum]

A side side note...

You didn't really answer my questions at all...

[notachance]

I think that your rules are biased...
In that...
If I allow for the possibility that prophecy is possible....
Who's to say what it should look like...

Are there rules?

It seems like these are your wishes...

I see no reason to assume that a prophecy needs to follow any format...

It only needs to be accurate and true...
That is the only rule?

A prophecy in theory could violate all of your rules....

As long as the prophecy turns out to be true, it is legit

Lets think for a second about what you just said. "As long as a prophecy turns out to be true then it's legit"

Ok. Lets test that claim to see it if makes sense.

"I hereby make the prophecy that tomorrow morning the sun will rise in the east".

So, if my prophecy turns out to be true, then it's legit? Is that what you're saying?

If I predict that the sun will rise in the east, and then that's what happens, then it proves that I have supernatural powers?

WHAT???

Man, I'm really confused! What are you trying to tell me. Are you still just making fun of me?

On a side note yes the world will end...
Revelations gives specific details...
Which have not happened yet...

Aren't you shutting down the debate a little soon?
Perhaps Revelations is accurate?
How do we know?

Dude, are you still joking? it's absurd to come to the conclusion that the iron age simpleton who scribbled that stuff on sheep skin somehow had magical powers because maybe the world might end in the way he described it.

That is the most backwards and asinine way of looking at it! I mean no disrespect to you personally, and I honestly doubt that you actually believe this.

It's like saying that if I predict that a volcano will erupt in Las Vegas in 10,000 years, then maybe I have magical powers because maybe it might turn out that I am right.

It might be that I indeed do have magical powers, but it's absurd to even contemplate the notion until it turns out that I was right about my prophecy. Talk to me after the rapture, dude! Until then don't come to supernatural conclusions! It makes no sense.

Dude, I'm all about a cheap laugh, and I suspect that's what you're going for. But maybe if you're not serious and just want to joke around (which is totally fine), it might be better that you just send me a PM, or start a thread in the random ramblings section, rather than clog up a thread meant for serious debate.

[joncash]

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearlinga together;
and a little child will lead them.
The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the viper’s nest.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.

-Isaiah 11:6-9

This is my favorite prophecy in the Bible. It has not yet come to pass. I believe your concept of prophecy is a primitive one based upon ancient, forcibly undeveloped (fundamentalist) beliefs.

God makes no effort to prove Himself to anyone physically with magic tricks like fortune telling or otherwise.

[notachance]

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearlinga together;
and a little child will lead them.
The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the viper’s nest.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.

-Isaiah 11:6-9

This is my favorite prophecy in the Bible. It has not yet come to pass.

“All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost;
the old that is strong does not wither, deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring;
renewed shall be blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.�

That's my favorite prophecy from the Lord of the Rings by J.R Tolkien. It has not yet come to pass.

Just because something sounds nice and quaint and epic and romantic, it doesn't mean that it has anything to do with the real world. Human beings are capable of writing fiction and be moved by it. It doesn't mean squat.

I believe your concept of prophecy is a primitive one based upon ancient, forcibly undeveloped (fundamentalist) beliefs.

That is NOT my concept of prophecy. It's indeed the concept of undeveloped fundamentalists who try to jam their literalist beliefs down my throat. It's their claims of Biblical evidence for God that I am responding to.

If you disagree with this interpretation of Christianity, you should take it up with those who embrace it, not me.

God makes no effort to prove Himself to anyone physically with magic tricks like fortune telling or otherwise.

Ok, so your answer to my OP question "Can you think of any Bible prophecy that meets the requirements above? " is no.

You claim that God does not prove his supernatural existence by virtue of prophecies or other magic tricks.

So how do you claim that this supernatural entity manifests himself, and what extra-biblical evidence you have to back up your claim?

[arian]

Salvation2011:
Your point that the limitations that I placed on the definition of "a prophecy that proves the divine nature of the Bible" are unfair because they are stricter than a basic dictionary definition, has been debunked. By me, and by flitzerbiest.

Would you like to formulate a counter-argument or bring up any additional point?

Or do you retract your statement, and admit that the standard that I expect of a supernatural prophecy is fair and legitimate?

In the latter case, can you think of any prophecy that meets my fair and legitimate standard?

I mean, what seems to be the problem? I've heard Christians say that prophecies are pretty much the ultimate proof of the supernatural authorship/inspiration of the Bible.

Why is nobody coming forward with an example for debate? I don't get it!

Hello Notachance, and yet another good stumper for us theists, 'prophesy'.

I have a prophesy: "no one here will ever be able to prove to you or come up with a legitimate supernatural prophesy."

There.
Now you have a prophesy. (pat myself on the back; pat, .. pat, ..)

oh wait, ... if no one will be able to come up with a legitimate prophesy, my own prophesy will become false, because then mine will be true ... nuts...

Isn't this like;
You: "show me a supernatural miracle."

(I walk on water as you swim next to me)

You: "Hey, that's neat. Do it again! Do it again!"

Me: "Well, do you now believe in my God?"

You: "No. I don't believe in God, but that was neat, can you do it again?"

I'm just saying my friend. No matter what a Christian will do or say, you can always go back to #1, which is "I don't believe". What do you think?

Ok, how about we call it a draw? After all, what kind of prophesy would you want from the book on the spaghetti monster? Shouldn't we prove to you first that there is a God?

I like the Prophesy done some time ago by the (________)'s. Their prophet said that Jesus, Moses and Elijah will come and talk with him on August 1st 1985 and he convinced his many members to build a huge Mansion in a nice area of San Diego to welcome them.

The time came and went, but Jesus, Moses and Elijah did not show up.

When the congregation questioned their Prophets legitimacy, in defense he told them: "Brothers, I am very upset myself. Here we go and build them a beautiful Mansion in an expensive part of the beautiful San Diego, and days, weeks months passed and they did not show up. They told me they would on the date I have prophesied to you, and as you can see, it's another no-show.

But why should that discourage us? I have done my part, and you have done yours. Just imagine if you would not have listened to me and this Mansion was not built and ready on the date, and they showed up? Now I suggest I move in that Mansion with my family and wait for further instructions from Jesus, Moses and Elijah."

The congregation was very happy about their devotion to the prophesy and thought it a good idea for the prophet to move in.

But in all reality, I do see Daniels, and Revelations prophesies coming true. The Beast, the LAST Beast that has been mortally wounded has risen and is in power as we speak. Satan has granted it his power to rule and do as he wills, which he does. He has attacked Christianity by the Zeitgeist/Venus Project movement, assisted and monitored by Facebook, the Social Network.

The Great sign of "Bringing down Fire from Heaven before the whole world" is already in orbit and is, as in Star Wars: "The Deathstar is fully operational" This will be used to fool even the elect (as if that was possible) the so-called Christians, who when seeing this false wonder, will bow down to the Beast and its image.

The 'Mark of the Beast' has been on peoples foreheads for a time now (in the Trinity Doctrine, in the media, songs that teach people to 'listen to their heart', Music Idols like Lady Gaga and hundreds more) the Pyramid with the all seeing eye that we see just about everywhere.
The final seal, that is the permanent one is already out, and the power to buy or sell has been already created, only not fully implemented yet. (God is delaying it a little longer)

This is because the Lord is waiting for a few more Gentile souls to be saved (you could be one of those that God is delaying the "doors to the Gentiles to be shut", my friends)

The Jews have all been re-animated as is written, "the bones stood up and I saw flesh and skin come upon them and they came to life"

They walk, but that 'life, that Spiritual LIFE' is not yet given to them, and until then, they are still dead (in their sins)

This will be soon, very soon, as soon as the branch of the wild olive tree will be dried up and removed (No more Gentiles saved, that is to be able to become Jews through Christ)
Then, the Lord will send His Two Witnesses, (I believe, I could be wrong) as the 'eyes of the Jews' will be opened, and thousands a day will come to know the Lord, their Messiah they have killed (and still trying to kill)

I am NOT a prophet, but it is a Christian duty to let everyone know what we believe. It is all written, and all Believers who the Lord chose will be given information as the fulfillment of the prophesies written long ago come to life.

How do I 'believe' in all this? Because I am being persecuted. What harm have I done for anyone to try to kill me? Yet it started at my birth... Hmm... All the Angelic protection the Lord has assigned to me, it has to have a reason...

God bless you all, whether you say you don't believe in God, or you do, it doesn't matter to me. My faith is strong enough for both of us, just don't depend on me too much. Who knows, maybe my prayers will save a few souls from death, but then, that is a matter of faith... ey Notachance?

Take care of yourself.

[fredonly]

I wish I had a dollar for all the times in the past 2000 years when someone said that "now" is the time referred to in Revelations. The beast is "....." The simplest answer is that Revelations was written about events current at the time of writing. That the number, 666, refers to Emperor Nero (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast#Nero)

[sarabellum]

Dude?(I am not making fun of you.)

I am trying to debate not clog...
In fact my response to you created another sub thread started by Mormon Boy...
About prophecy...

(Thinking for others may drive you crazy?)

Anyway...
The sun coming up is a prediction?
Not a prophecy?
That has been mentioned more than once?

On top of that I haven't really started to debate...
I asked a few questions...
Made a comment about your "rules"...
Tried to establish how we were going to approach this...

Have you answered any of my questions?

Lets try one at a time....
(I am a lousy communicator...)

What evidence can you supply indicating that Prophecy needs to follow a certain format?
Specifically your list of rules...

Is this just your personal criteria?
Or did I miss an E-mail? (from God)



Authors note: No smiles or laughs were created during this post.
I got my serious face on....

[salvation2011]

Well, here is one for you.....but nobody else will see it: (this is in part due to the mistranslations from the original text, perhaps purposeful when they were written in support of Jesus as Messiah... bc the new translations make it appear he is.... the original Hebrew, does not, it shows a different story):

Malachi is the one prophet who had a prophecy that came true with Jesus. Not the Messiah, but the one announced as the sword through (Ezekiel) was prophesied about in Malachi as one sent by Adonai-Tzva'ot (The Lord of the Armies)... that was his father. "The Father" and "my father" were distinctly separated by Jesus bc Adonai is The Father, and Adonai-Tzva'ot was the one who sent him (a clear distinction found in Hebrew translated text). Anyway, Jesus was sent to test and purify like a refiner.
As written in Malachi:
15 We consider the arrogant happy; also evildoers prosper; they put God to the test; nevertheless, they escape.'" 16 Then those who feared ADONAI spoke together; and ADONAI listened and heard. A record book was written in his presence for those who feared ADONAI and had respect for his name. 17 "They will be mine," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot, "on the day when I compose my own special treasure. I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him. 18 Then once again you will see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between the person who serves God and one that doesn't serve him.

Christians are the "special treasure" but the house of Levi and Jacob are to be spared. I will not explain further, as it is clear in the prophecy to those who choose to see. The part that has been fulfilled was Jesus' arrival and what many call his "preaching" with the parables... which were really tests to determine who lived by Torah and who would be partial.

1 "Look! I am sending my messenger to clear the way before me; and the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to his temple. Yes, the messenger of the covenant, in whom you take such delight - look! Here he comes," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot. 2 But who can endure the day when he comes? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire, like the soapmaker's lye. 3 He will sit, testing and purifying the silver; he will purify the sons of Levi, refining them like gold and silver, so that they can bring offerings to ADONAI uprightly. 4 Then the offering of Y'hudah and Yerushalayim will be pleasing to ADONAI, as it was in the days of old, as in years gone by.

Prophecy as you describe in your OP, is not seen yet as fulfilled to Christians (bc Jesus is still coming back) or Jews (who are still waiting for the messiah) bc they are waiting for something else to happen... so with your definition the only "fulfilled prophecy" that could even be mentioned on this mostly Christian site would be Jesus coming as foretold by Isaiah, bc they believe that Isaiah was the announcement of his coming... so to Christians that is a prophecy fulfilled.

I, being not affiliated with any organized religion, but believe in the Old Testament laws and 1 Ultimate God do not see that prophecy at all, bc to me it was not an announcement of Jesus... it was a story about the suffering servant and that servant being discussed was Israel/Jacob.

I guess my answer is that biblical prophecy fulfillment is subjective to whomever is reading. In that subjectivity, prophecy is lost. Supernatural functions with different ways than we do, so we cant really prove or disprove can we, between 2 parallel existencies?

[Goat]

Well, here is one for you.....but nobody else will see it: (this is in part due to the mistranslations from the original text, perhaps purposeful when they were written in support of Jesus as Messiah... bc the new translations make it appear he is.... the original Hebrew, does not, it shows a different story):

Malachi is the one prophet who had a prophecy that came true with Jesus. Not the Messiah, but the one announced as the sword through (Ezekiel) was prophesied about in Malachi as one sent by Adonai-Tzva'ot (The Lord of the Armies)... that was his father. "The Father" and "my father" were distinctly separated by Jesus bc Adonai is The Father, and Adonai-Tzva'ot was the one who sent him (a clear distinction found in Hebrew translated text). Anyway, Jesus was sent to test and purify like a refiner.
As written in Malachi:
15 We consider the arrogant happy; also evildoers prosper; they put God to the test; nevertheless, they escape.'" 16 Then those who feared ADONAI spoke together; and ADONAI listened and heard. A record book was written in his presence for those who feared ADONAI and had respect for his name. 17 "They will be mine," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot, "on the day when I compose my own special treasure. I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him. 18 Then once again you will see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between the person who serves God and one that doesn't serve him.

Is that a prophecy, or is that an observation, and a declaration of being faithful? How is that any kind of prediction of the future, rather than an observation of the past and present at the time of the writing??

Christians are the "special treasure" but the house of Levi and Jacob are to be spared. I will not explain further, as it is clear in the prophecy to those who choose to see. The part that has been fulfilled was Jesus' arrival and what many call his "preaching" with the parables... which were really tests to determine who lived by Torah and who would be partial.

Really?? Are you projecting your hope, and are just reading into vague references the message you want to hear? Show me the exact phrases you want, and can you demonstrate that it isn't just vague phrases where you are 'filling in the blanks' so to speak?

1 "Look! I am sending my messenger to clear the way before me; and the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to his temple. Yes, the messenger of the covenant, in whom you take such delight - look! Here he comes," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot. 2 But who can endure the day when he comes? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire, like the soapmaker's lye. 3 He will sit, testing and purifying the silver; he will purify the sons of Levi, refining them like gold and silver, so that they can bring offerings to ADONAI uprightly. 4 Then the offering of Y'hudah and Yerushalayim will be pleasing to ADONAI, as it was in the days of old, as in years gone by.

How is that a propehcy for Jesus? Have not there been many prophets (messangers)???

[salvation2011]

Well, here is one for you.....but nobody else will see it: (this is in part due to the mistranslations from the original text, perhaps purposeful when they were written in support of Jesus as Messiah... bc the new translations make it appear he is.... the original Hebrew, does not, it shows a different story):

Malachi is the one prophet who had a prophecy that came true with Jesus. Not the Messiah, but the one announced as the sword through (Ezekiel) was prophesied about in Malachi as one sent by Adonai-Tzva'ot (The Lord of the Armies)... that was his father. "The Father" and "my father" were distinctly separated by Jesus bc Adonai is The Father, and Adonai-Tzva'ot was the one who sent him (a clear distinction found in Hebrew translated text). Anyway, Jesus was sent to test and purify like a refiner.
As written in Malachi:
15 We consider the arrogant happy; also evildoers prosper; they put God to the test; nevertheless, they escape.'" 16 Then those who feared ADONAI spoke together; and ADONAI listened and heard. A record book was written in his presence for those who feared ADONAI and had respect for his name. 17 "They will be mine," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot, "on the day when I compose my own special treasure. I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him. 18 Then once again you will see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between the person who serves God and one that doesn't serve him.

Is that a prophecy, or is that an observation, and a declaration of being faithful? How is that any kind of prediction of the future, rather than an observation of the past and present at the time of the writing??

Christians are the "special treasure" but the house of Levi and Jacob are to be spared. I will not explain further, as it is clear in the prophecy to those who choose to see. The part that has been fulfilled was Jesus' arrival and what many call his "preaching" with the parables... which were really tests to determine who lived by Torah and who would be partial.

Really?? Are you projecting your hope, and are just reading into vague references the message you want to hear? Show me the exact phrases you want, and can you demonstrate that it isn't just vague phrases where you are 'filling in the blanks' so to speak?

1 "Look! I am sending my messenger to clear the way before me; and the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to his temple. Yes, the messenger of the covenant, in whom you take such delight - look! Here he comes," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot. 2 But who can endure the day when he comes? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire, like the soapmaker's lye. 3 He will sit, testing and purifying the silver; he will purify the sons of Levi, refining them like gold and silver, so that they can bring offerings to ADONAI uprightly. 4 Then the offering of Y'hudah and Yerushalayim will be pleasing to ADONAI, as it was in the days of old, as in years gone by.

How is that a propehcy for Jesus? Have not there been many prophets (messangers)???

I would have to sit down with you and read the entire book to show you what I am talking about. I can see how it appears Im showing you only passages I would like to prove something... and yes, anyone can do that.

As I concluded at the end of my previous post, you cannot prove anything between 2 parallel existencies (one existence... humans cant claim to know the ways of the other existence... in this case supernatural)... so I should have just deleted everything before it. All the information before it was presenting the closest thing to prophecy that I have found in the Bible... that was written before it actually happened (Revelations was to me not written prior to... it was a revelation of things that had happened). I believe God did send someone to define the righteous from the wicked... its just depending on who you talk to about it, they see it or him differently! That this disagreement/difference in opinion exists at all... doesnt that nullify a prophecy from being a prophecy (bc its not all truth and fulfillment as indisputable fact)?