I tried "being a Christian" and having faith, now

[Muddy Muffins]

I apologize if it seems tangential, but I'm starting with a bit of a story.

I'm still young, and until Christmas of 2011, I had always I had always accepted Christianity like my parents told me to. I never questioned it because my parents were, for some reason, hesitant to teach me about it, even when I asked. So all I thought was that God was perfect. Seeing as I didn't know what "perfect" was to Christians, I made up my own perfect, and made God that. Or rather, I assume that because whenever I prayed for advice or guidance, he always seemed to tell me exactly what I wanted to hear, which never worked out well in practice. I'm not convinced I was ever talking to anyone, as much as I'd like to believe I was.

Later, on that Christmas, I was forced to go to church(something we rarely did). I was incredibly annoyed, because we went so late at night. I then realized that it probably isn't a good thing to be annoyed to worship someone you're supposed to love that much. So of course I half-heartedly consulted with him like I normally do. I still felt like I didn't want to go. I always assumed what my gut said to do was what God was telling me to do. So anyway, at the request of my parents, I go. Skipping over the details for brevity, the people at the church and my parents said some things I really disagreed with. No matter how much I consulted with God, I really couldn't come to terms with these things. It's that night I really thought about it. Was I really talking to anyone? How had I gotten so much bad guidance from an omniscient being? How could an omniscient being say things I disagreed with so much, and not even personally guide me to believe these things?

Over the course of that night, I realized I didn't believe in God. I could stop talking him altogether, and couldn't care less. I felt no love for whatever I was talking to. I felt no respect. Nothing. I really believed I did speak with him, but as I said, the inconsistencies with my communication with him and christian teachings and the poor guidance suggest otherwise. I could not for the life of me connect with this supposed God that the bible spoke of.

Story was longer than I meant it to be, but getting to the point... I currently define myself as an atheist, although if I may further explain my stance; I do not believe in any God a religion describes. The existence of a God in general isn't inconceivable to me, I simply have no reason to believe it yet. So for now, I'll call myself an atheist. I've tried as hard as I could to connect to this God, and simply couldn't without fabricating my own God that didn't violate my morals. If faith is the path to God, where did I go wrong? I'd like to be as open-minded as possible about this.

[TheTruth101]

On a second thought, ideas of God are ignored by Atheists. We can all agree on that. However, atheists do not address why and how the 'idea' of God came into play in the first place.

'Ideas' of anything, as I have stated prior, are only seen or pictured by one through prior figments of concluding evidence. In short, everyone plagerizes another at some point in their life. We call it advancements and creative works and whatnot, but the deal is, it all goes down to plagerizing small fragments of one another.

The point I'm trying to make is this, knowing that atheists believe that God does not exist, how did the idea of a 'higher' being come into focus in the first place and for what reasons? As far as I can see, there is no reason for one to use ideas of God simply due to the fact that doctrines regarding God promotes rebellion against money and power and rather induces suffering for the faithful followers.

So, one must ask, why would one in the beggining 'come up' with the idea of God? The answer is, one didn't 'come up' with anything, God simply exists and his tales or stories have been told from ear to ear, and eventually written down by the ones that really spoke to the supernatural omnipotent being.

[Nickman]

On a second thought, ideas of God are ignored by Atheists. We can all agree on that. However, atheists do not address why and how the 'idea' of God came into play in the first place.

Sure we do. I have a very thoughful discourse on how and why gods came into play. That's a whole nuther thread though.

The point I'm trying to make is this, knowing that atheists believe that God does not exist, how did the idea of a 'higher' being come into focus in the first place and for what reasons? As far as I can see, there is no reason for one to use ideas of God simply due to the fact that doctrines regarding God promotes rebellion against money and power and rather induces suffering for the faithful followers.

There is a very good and thoughtful idea of how "higher" beings came to play in our evolutionary journey. It seems to start with agriculture which gave us more time to relax and conjure up ideas about our reality. Before agriculture we were always following the game trail and our next meal. This left no time for philosophy to arise.

[stubbornone]

On a second thought, ideas of God are ignored by Atheists. We can all agree on that. However, atheists do not address why and how the 'idea' of God came into play in the first place.

Sure we do. I have a very thoughful discourse on how and why gods came into play. That's a whole nuther thread though.

The point I'm trying to make is this, knowing that atheists believe that God does not exist, how did the idea of a 'higher' being come into focus in the first place and for what reasons? As far as I can see, there is no reason for one to use ideas of God simply due to the fact that doctrines regarding God promotes rebellion against money and power and rather induces suffering for the faithful followers.

There is a very good and thoughtful idea of how "higher" beings came to play in our evolutionary journey. It seems to start with agriculture which gave us more time to relax and conjure up ideas about our reality. Before agriculture we were always following the game trail and our next meal. This left no time for philosophy to arise.

And yet, there religious symbols from hunter gatherer societies in the historical record, and plenty of animal species that have forms of agriculture and ... No gods. Go figure.

[Nickman]

On a second thought, ideas of God are ignored by Atheists. We can all agree on that. However, atheists do not address why and how the 'idea' of God came into play in the first place.

Sure we do. I have a very thoughful discourse on how and why gods came into play. That's a whole nuther thread though.

The point I'm trying to make is this, knowing that atheists believe that God does not exist, how did the idea of a 'higher' being come into focus in the first place and for what reasons? As far as I can see, there is no reason for one to use ideas of God simply due to the fact that doctrines regarding God promotes rebellion against money and power and rather induces suffering for the faithful followers.

There is a very good and thoughtful idea of how "higher" beings came to play in our evolutionary journey. It seems to start with agriculture which gave us more time to relax and conjure up ideas about our reality. Before agriculture we were always following the game trail and our next meal. This left no time for philosophy to arise.

And yet, there religious symbols from hunter gatherer societies in the historical record, and plenty of animal species that have forms of agriculture and ... No gods. Go figure.

Can you provide such symbols you claim and show that they are in fact religious?

[Divine Insight]

Morals are only established as to what you think is right or wrong, by all means, murder is clearly a right thing to do if you refer to the day Bin Laden was killed, and saw hundreds and thousands in pure joy and waving our flag. It is still murder.

Supposedly Bin Laden was only doing the will of the God he believed in which is Allah. Bin Laden was killing heathens as per instructions from God.

So Bin Laden would have been given a place in the highest most heaven for having done the will of God.

Its really the same thing when God murdered the people in Sodom and Gommorah, and flooded everyone during Noah's days. You can kind of see the people in Sodom and Gommorah as Bin Laden and his terrorits.

The only problem with your scenario here is that you are equating God with the likes of Bin Laden.

The people in Sodom and Gomorrah would have been Bin Laden. Those people would be the people of American who worship Mammon over God.

God himself would be Bin Laden in this scenario. So you're actually raising Bin Laden up to the level of your God without even realizing it.

In all, passing the "tests" of Atheists that handout one liners at all times God does not exist on this board.

If life is some sort of test, the atheist would be passing the test far better than the religious people.

Many religious people claim that only the existence of a God is what give morality meaning. Take away the God and they lose all sense of morality altogether. In fact, their religion even demands that morality can't even come from a mortal man, it can only come from a God.

Therefore a moral atheist would pass this test with a far higher score than the religious people because moral atheists are moral on their own merit. They realize that morality must necessarily come from them because they believe that they are the only source of morality.

Religious people basically have no moral values at all. In fact, if they did, they wouldn't need to be worshiping someone like Jesus.

Why would you stand in awe of the moral values of Jesus if you already held those same moral values yourself? You'd realize that it's no big deal. Jesus simply agrees with your moral values.

The whole idea that religions or God are even required for morality is an idea that is totally devoid of any merit whatsoever.

And like you have already pointed out. The God that you worship kills people just like Bin Laden did as his "Divine Solutions" to problems.

You're basically worshiping an imaginary Bin Laden in the sky and hoping to pass his test of morality because according to you, you have no moral values of your own.

You can't. Because if you did, then you could clearly see why there is no need for any God in order to have moral values in the first place.

Atheists who have high moral values are clearly the most God-like creatures in the universe.

Religious people have no moral values of their own at all. They can't. Because if they did, they wouldn't need to be worshiping a Bin Laden in the sky who decides for them what he defines to be moral or immoral.

[TheTruth101]

Morals are only established as to what you think is right or wrong, by all means, murder is clearly a right thing to do if you refer to the day Bin Laden was killed, and saw hundreds and thousands in pure joy and waving our flag. It is still murder.

Supposedly Bin Laden was only doing the will of the God he believed in which is Allah. Bin Laden was killing heathens as per instructions from God.

So Bin Laden would have been given a place in the highest most heaven for having done the will of God.

Its really the same thing when God murdered the people in Sodom and Gommorah, and flooded everyone during Noah's days. You can kind of see the people in Sodom and Gommorah as Bin Laden and his terrorits.

The only problem with your scenario here is that you are equating God with the likes of Bin Laden.

The people in Sodom and Gomorrah would have been Bin Laden. Those people would be the people of American who worship Mammon over God.

God himself would be Bin Laden in this scenario. So you're actually raising Bin Laden up to the level of your God without even realizing it.

In all, passing the "tests" of Atheists that handout one liners at all times God does not exist on this board.

If life is some sort of test, the atheist would be passing the test far better than the religious people.

Many religious people claim that only the existence of a God is what give morality meaning. Take away the God and they lose all sense of morality altogether. In fact, their religion even demands that morality can't even come from a mortal man, it can only come from a God.

Therefore a moral atheist would pass this test with a far higher score than the religious people because moral atheists are moral on their own merit. They realize that morality must necessarily come from them because they believe that they are the only source of morality.

Religious people basically have no moral values at all. In fact, if they did, they wouldn't need to be worshiping someone like Jesus.

Why would you stand in awe of the moral values of Jesus if you already held those same moral values yourself? You'd realize that it's no big deal. Jesus simply agrees with your moral values.

The whole idea that religions or God are even required for morality is an idea that is totally devoid of any merit whatsoever.

And like you have already pointed out. The God that you worship kills people just like Bin Laden did as his "Divine Solutions" to problems.

You're basically worshiping an imaginary Bin Laden in the sky and hoping to pass his test of morality because according to you, you have no moral values of your own.

You can't. Because if you did, then you could clearly see why there is no need for any God in order to have moral values in the first place.

Atheists who have high moral values are clearly the most God-like creatures in the universe.

Religious people have no moral values of their own at all. They can't. Because if they did, they wouldn't need to be worshiping a Bin Laden in the sky who decides for them what he defines to be moral or immoral.

Athesists learn of morals from the mass media or the structured rules of the society at some point. All laws of the given society stems from philosophy, and philopsophy is in nature with God, not of another "one" being. If that were the case, dictatorship in North Korea would be spread amongst all world to be the right way into ruling or giving morals. And as all know, North Korea is frowned upon by the outer world for their failed morality.

It is true that Bin Laden was doing Gods "works" in his mind when he commited 9/11, and in accordance with Christs teachings that all are from God, it is true that Bin Laden will get a place in the heavens. I highly doubt a high placement, but a low level placement after he goes through perguatory stage. Read on, it is explained later why.

In accordance to Christs teaching and of christianity, "suffering" is a way of earning Gods mercy, and the people that have died in 9/11 indeed suffrered, so it is to be said that they did go through tremendous "suffering", therefore will earn Gods mercy and be placed in the heavens.

As I have mentioned prior, with the mindset that "suffering" needs to be taken seriously to get Gods mercy, mass suicide is possible, or even mass genocide. We have seen it throgh cult leaders of yesterday within christianity promoting mass suicide, or even through Hitler, commiting mass genocide to the Jews.
Or you can even see mass suicide throgh suicide bombers of Muslims religion, and indeed, christianity and muslims spiritual teachings come from the same forefather, Abraham. To make point again, "suffering" is the foundation of earning God's mercy within Abarahamic religions.

I had mentioned this on another thread, and it is a dangerous line. However, within me and how I figure, the past cult leaders of christianity promoting mass suicide, and the muslims promoting mass genocide and suicide, one thing they forget is, and the most important teachings of Christ, that God is all and everything.

If they had that in mind, they wouldn't do as they have done. Its killing God. Sad part is, they dont have that mindset within their ideas of theology, simply because not many are aware that Christ said God is all and everything.

Since I know you are into Buddhism, to give you a clearer idea, you know monks do not even kill a fly, its simply do to the fact that Buddah promoted God is nature, and killing anything in nature is killing yourself because God lies within one, and gets to be reincarnated over.
This supports being made new of flesh, and it is somewhat similar to what Christ and Saint Paul said within christianity, that God will give us a new flesh in the heavens. Therefore, reincarnation is in the works here as well.

The point here is, God is all and everything, nature itself. Therefore, one should refrain from hurting anything.

Again, God is "spiritual" therefore, it acknowledges the Father is not of flesh, therefore no one should promote to "suffer" for God within subjects that include physical pain. Concluding, if one chooses to "suffer" for the mercy of God, it should be of emotional "suffering" not of the "physical".

Truth of it is, God will judge according to their works. If any belive in God, then they will get into heavens one day. Although they will go through penal atoning by the Holy Spirit, they will eventually get placed in the heavns.

You mention Athesists hold high moral values and are more Godlike without considering one supreme power exists. As quoted here,


"Atheists who have high moral values are clearly the most God-like creatures in the universe. "



This is what was said from Christ in the revelations. Of the Anti-christs.

One will sit at the seat above God and the Son himself and claim himself the God of the new world.


If you dont belive in a higher supreme power that created you, then you are saying you are God yourself, that you were created on your own, and its funny that we saw a prime example by your 1 statement that prophecy being filled.
us being the Sons of God,and you claiming your moral values are higher than ours, indeed, Atheists mentality were prophecised by Christ in the revelations.

[Nickman]

@ Divine Insight
Sorry I cut in. I just had to on this. Forgive me.

Athesists learn of morals from the mass media or the structured rules of the society at some point. All laws of the given society stems from philosophy, and philopsophy is in nature with God, not of another "one" being. If that were the case, dictatorship in North Korea would be spread amongst all world to be the right way into ruling or giving morals. And as all know, North Korea is frowned upon by the outer world for their failed morality.

I would say your right that atheists learn morals from society, but I would add that theists do too. Our morals are no different from each other. The difference is that one of these groups claims supremacy for what they learned in society as if they are more righteous and they learned from god. They don't acknowledge the societal influence on their own morals.

It is true that Bin Laden was doing Gods "works" in his mind when he commited 9/11, and in accordance with Christs teachings that all are from God, it is true that Bin Laden will get a place in the heavens. I highly doubt a high placement, but a low level placement after he goes through perguatory stage. Read on, it is explained later why.

Wouldn't be better if all people go to the same place regardless of creed, belief, or status? That seems optimal.

In accordance to Christs teaching and of christianity, "suffering" is a way of earning Gods mercy, and the people that have died in 9/11 indeed suffrered, so it is to be said that they did go through tremendous "suffering", therefore will earn Gods mercy and be placed in the heavens.

Where is this heaven at? Can you locate it for me?

Bin Laden himself is frowned upon by the United States, however, within his circle of peers, he was looked upon as one of the prophets. You have to stop and look at both shoes, he fed his people, clothed them, and protected them. Amongst his people, he was indeed a good man, and put in "works" of God.

No, bin laden made descent humans do hideous things in the name of religious beliefs. Bad bin laden, bad.

[TheTruth101]

@ Divine Insight
Sorry I cut in. I just had to on this. Forgive me.

Athesists learn of morals from the mass media or the structured rules of the society at some point. All laws of the given society stems from philosophy, and philopsophy is in nature with God, not of another "one" being. If that were the case, dictatorship in North Korea would be spread amongst all world to be the right way into ruling or giving morals. And as all know, North Korea is frowned upon by the outer world for their failed morality.

I would say your right that atheists learn morals from society, but I would add that theists do too. Our morals are no different from each other. The difference is that one of these groups claims supremacy for what they learned in society as if they are more righteous and they learned from god. They don't acknowledge the societal influence on their own morals.

It is true that Bin Laden was doing Gods "works" in his mind when he commited 9/11, and in accordance with Christs teachings that all are from God, it is true that Bin Laden will get a place in the heavens. I highly doubt a high placement, but a low level placement after he goes through perguatory stage. Read on, it is explained later why.

Wouldn't be better if all people go to the same place regardless of creed, belief, or status? That seems optimal.

In accordance to Christs teaching and of christianity, "suffering" is a way of earning Gods mercy, and the people that have died in 9/11 indeed suffrered, so it is to be said that they did go through tremendous "suffering", therefore will earn Gods mercy and be placed in the heavens.

Where is this heaven at? Can you locate it for me?

Bin Laden himself is frowned upon by the United States, however, within his circle of peers, he was looked upon as one of the prophets. You have to stop and look at both shoes, he fed his people, clothed them, and protected them. Amongst his people, he was indeed a good man, and put in "works" of God.

No, bin laden made descent humans do hideous things in the name of religious beliefs. Bad bin laden, bad.

There are two people within society. One is the unfaithful, the other is the faithful people of God.

As it is said under Apostles Creed, as done in Heavens as on earth, It is the same deal that one has to "sacrifice" in order to achieve anything of great status, and in midst "suffering" for the given subjects. An example would be studying for an exam, or working in general and having been put on "stress" to make money.
Its all the same deal, as in, "suffering" for a better placement of life. And eternity is life that is everlasting, and indeed it is a placement that will be for eternal, thus, it is the hardest "test" or "suffering" one has to endure to give up ones fullfilment of life to get a final score, or the judgmenet be made for all eternity.


Heavnens is within you and around you. As stated by Christ.
Everything from beggining of time that we had on earth is heavens after you die in flesh. Time being irrelevant in the heavens as stated by Peter with scriptuture "With God one day is equal to a thousand years, and a thousand years is to one, It simply means all are under the invisible energy known as God, and energy cant be broken or diminished but rather circulates, therefore concludes to energy remembering everything of life from beggining of time. With time being irrelevant with God, and us the Saints becoming a God as evident by the Nicene Creed,

The Nicene Creed (381 AD)

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were...


We will be able to see everything from beggining of time on every given situation of all things, since again, God is everything and all.
This can mean witnessing Moses split the sea first hand, or watch Jordan play ball in the front row seats, or the sky view for that matter.


To give you a clue how it is evident and possible, like I have said alot of times on this board, refer to our dreams, or the third eye, simply referenced as the only time we are able to see is when we sleep, concluding the "third eye".


Dreams come with mass,color,texture,depth,deminsions on its own. One is also able to feel "weight" in a dream, simply because when we fall in a dream, we feel the "roller coaster" effect, therefore "weight" is recognized, and garvity itself is in motion when we dream.

The point here is, dreams are created and involve the same measurements of the real earth's playing field. So it can be concluded that dreams actually consist of the real "earth" being created on a nightly basis.

Dreams itself is a testimony and a presign that eternity exists. As evident by the Apostles of yesterday, propheciysed events and vision were made mostly under ones dreams.

So to tell you where the heaven is, as christ said again, it's within you and around you.


Bin Laden did what he can for God. That is yours and my opinion that he did hideous things. Within his people, they think the opposite, therefore they live the righteous ways within his people. And they die doing it, so it can be said that they lived a righteous life within their circle of connections.

[Danmark]

....
If life is some sort of test, the atheist would be passing the test far better than the religious people.

Many religious people claim that only the existence of a God is what give morality meaning. Take away the God and they lose all sense of morality altogether. In fact, their religion even demands that morality can't even come from a mortal man, it can only come from a God.

Therefore a moral atheist would pass this test with a far higher score than the religious people because moral atheists are moral on their own merit. They realize that morality must necessarily come from them because they believe that they are the only source of morality.

Religious people basically have no moral values at all. In fact, if they did, they wouldn't need to be worshiping someone like Jesus.

Why would you stand in awe of the moral values of Jesus if you already held those same moral values yourself? You'd realize that it's no big deal. Jesus simply agrees with your moral values.

The whole idea that religions or God are even required for morality is an idea that is totally devoid of any merit whatsoever.
....
Atheists who have high moral values are clearly the most God-like creatures in the universe.

Religious people have no moral values of their own at all. They can't. Because if they did, they wouldn't need to be worshiping a Bin Laden in the sky who decides for them what he defines to be moral or immoral.

I have said and believed much the same thing, but I'm not sure we're right. I am going to suggest there is less difference between atheists and theists than either realize. I think I'll start a new subtopic about this. I've thought about this for a while, and tho' I'm going to give it a provocative title, I am uncomfortable with saying "Religious people have no moral values of their own at all."

The Link: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 483#522483

[Divine Insight]

If you dont belive in a higher supreme power that created you, then you are saying you are God yourself, that you were created on your own, and its funny that we saw a prime example by your 1 statement that prophecy being filled.
us being the Sons of God,and you claiming your moral values are higher than ours, indeed, Atheists mentality were prophecised by Christ in the revelations.

Most of your absurdities stem from your own erroneous act of jumping to totally false conclusions.

Where have I ever said that my moral values are any higher than anyone else?

Also, who are you referring to when you refer to "ours". Do you have a multiple personality disorder?

The things you claim were prophesied by Jesus wouldn't apply to me anyway. To begin with I'm not an atheist despite your erroneous lies.

I don't claim to be above God anymore than Jesus did. Jesus agrees with me that we and the father are one, and according to the Gospels he went out of his way to make that point. So you are in denial of what Jesus is even rumored to have claimed in the Gospels anyway.

Besides why are you so hell-bent on using Jesus as a battering ram for hatred?

I have never put you down. You are becoming egotistically defensive and offensive entirely on behalf of Jesus. You need to stop that and allow Jesus to stand on his own two feet if you believe that he can.

Do you agree with the moral values proposed by Jesus?

If you do, then you are no different from me. You are the one who has judged the moral values taught by Jesus to be in harmony with your own moral values.

On the other hand, if you disagree with the moral values of Jesus, then why would you even bother to worship him as a demigod?

You're in the same boat with me whether you like it or not. You necessarily have to have your own ideas of what is moral. And you judge Jesus' morality based upon that. That necessarily has to be the case. In fact, the only way that you could possibly claim that it's not the case is to claim that you have no clue what is moral or what isn't moral and you're merely accepting the Christian's claims (i.e. the authors of the New Testament) that Jesus had good moral values.

There's no getting around it. You can't claim to have gotten your moral values from a God, because if you did, then you don't have any sense of morality of your own.

@ Divine Insight
Sorry I cut in. I just had to on this. Forgive me.

Athesists learn of morals from the mass media or the structured rules of the society at some point. All laws of the given society stems from philosophy, and philopsophy is in nature with God, not of another "one" being. If that were the case, dictatorship in North Korea would be spread amongst all world to be the right way into ruling or giving morals. And as all know, North Korea is frowned upon by the outer world for their failed morality.

I would say your right that atheists learn morals from society, but I would add that theists do too. Our morals are no different from each other. The difference is that one of these groups claims supremacy for what they learned in society as if they are more righteous and they learned from god. They don't acknowledge the societal influence on their own morals.

I disagree that we necessarily learn our moral values from society. I'm quite sure that this is true of many people, because many people are indeed blind followers. They either blindly follow what they see as authority figures, or they blindly follow what they see as the masses. In other words they choose to follow the majority.

However, everyone isn't dust in the wind like that. There are many examples of individuals who have a mind of their own. They have rejected the idea of following what the masses do simply because the masses are doing it. And they have also questioned the moral claims of authority.

I'm certainly one of these people. I have never followed the masses. And I question all authority. In fact, as a citizen of the USA I claim that I am an Earthling first, and a citizen of the USA second. In other words, my moral values are aimed to what is good for the planet and humanity first, and only then do I consider what might be good for the USA or its citizens.

So my moral values have never come from a "Follow the Leader" approach to live. Instead, I evaluate life for myself and draw my own conclusions of what I consider to be the higher moral values.

Therefore my moral values come entirely "From Me", they do not come from government, society, or religion.

I will confess that I had a great role model for very high moral values in my mother. But again, just as with the moral values of Jesus, that's my assessment. Therefore I'm simply giving my mother and Jesus a "Thumbs Up" of approval. Moreso to my mother than to Jesus as IMHO, my mother held higher moral values that the Gospels attribute to Jesus, both through his teachings as well as through his actions.

So my moral values come "From Me". They do not come from society, (in fact I blatantly disagree with many of the moral values held by the society in which I live). They do not come from government (although I applaud Obama as doing the best he can considering the circumstances). And they certainly don't come from any God, (I passionately disagree with the immoral values attributed to the God of Abraham in the OT). I also hold that if Jesus truly was a demigod sent specifically by the God of Abraham to be beaten and nailed to a pole to pay for the sins of man, then this God is an example of extremely pathetic and immoral values.

So I don't get my moral values from anyone by myself. How could I? I can't even point to a single solitary other source of morality that I would agree with in entirety. So I can't have gotten my moral values from any such source.

I agree with much of the moral values that had been attributed to Jesus, but if Jesus truly was a demigod who was speaking on behalf of the God of Abraham, then he would lose all moral value instantly. The very idea of a God who would purposefully set out to have an innocent man beaten and nailed to a pole as a public example of his love would totally annihilate any and all moral values that might have been associated with Jesus. So the Christian picture loses any and all sense of morality.

My morality comes from me. Period.