Undeniable and Scientific Evidence of THE Creator.

[Zzyzx]

.
From another thread

I present undeniable and scientific evidence of THE Creator.

I await the evidence.

Question for debate: Is the evidence undeniable and scientific (and compelling / convincing) or is it just more of the same stuff that has been presented ad nausea?

[Divine Insight]

Look, is the number '1' finite or infinite? You agree it is finite. Now let's roll these numbers at the rate of an atomic clock, for lets say billions and billions of years.

Then stop.

Lets say the number is something like 10^2,000,000,000 power (too long to list here) no matter how big, but we still have a number, correct? Is this number finite or infinite? There cannot be 'more then ONE Infinite, one is all we need, and One is all we have.

I agree with that completely. And I have no problem with that. I also agree that we only have a need for ONE concept of infinity. Yet, ironically our mathematicians have defined many different sizes of infinite. According to them not only is there more than one infinity but there are infinitely many different sizes of infinity.

I totally disagree with our current mathematical formalism on this issue. But that's a whole other story.

You haven't shown that anything that is "infinite" exists. I might warn you ahead of time that eternal time does not imply an infinite thing either. But again that's a whole other story as well.

See what I mean? A finite no-matter-what could never become infinite, nor could the Infinite become finite. This is how I see and understand our 'Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind I Am Who I Am God'. There can only be ONE, and we were created in His image.

Fine, but just because you think you can imagine such a thing doesn't mean that it needs to actually exist.

This is exactly why I asked that we agree on some ground rules. We have to establish a permanent definition for 'finite' and 'Infinite'. We cannot have them finite at one time and Infinite at other times. I believe you agreed that there must remain a distinction between the two, isn't that right?

We're going to run into massive problems here because formally speaking our mathematical community has already created an infinite number of different sized infinities. So their distinction between the finite and the infinite is quite murky and ill-defined.

Again, ... I am NOT, I repeat; "I am NOT revealing the God of the Bible". Do you see me use scripture? We are talking science and mathematics so far, I did not use Scripture. I was just telling you that the Bible describes a God who is One as I have imagined.

In that case, why even bother bringing the Bible up at all. Why not just describe your concept of "God" and simply claim as an aside that you see no incompatibilities between your concept of God and the God described by the Bible.

That could actually be a totally separate debate.

For now let's just stick with science, mathematics, philosophy, and once we reach a common ground on definitions of words, we can go into the deeper wisdom of God, or knowing God as Creator, and if it is possible for an Eternal and Infinite being to exist, and to create? And how is it that He can create since He is invisible? For now, lets establish some basic rules so we don't flip-flop back and forth on definitions.

If you going down the road of perfectly defined words I think you are already lost. You can however create a philosophy in which YOU define the terms you use and suggest that your philosophy is only valid if those definitions are accepted.

In the meantime, like I say, even the sciences and mathematics have ill-defined concepts and terms (even though many scientists and mathematicians refuse to confess to this truth),

Here is what one famous Physicist had to say about semantics.

“We can't define anything precisely. If we attempt to, we get into the paralysis of thought that comes to philosophers... one saying to the other: you don't know what you are talking about! The second one says: what do you mean by talking? What do you mean by you? What do you mean by know?� - Dr. Richard Feynman.

I am in total agreement with Dr. Feynman on this issue. Once you get into semantic-dependent philosophical arguments things can become an endless argument about how to "precisely define" each and every concept considered.

When it comes to semantics I have a better suggestion. Just lay out your terms as YOU define them and then base your arguments upon that. If I disagree with any of your terms or how you are using them, then I simply say, "I don't agree with your foundational premises." And that's the end of it.

I'm not going to get into endless semantic arguments over what the "precise definition" of specific terms should mean. We can't even be that precise in science and mathematics, even though many people seem to think that's actually possible. But in truth, it's not.

Another quote of my own that I like to use is the following:

“If you believe that all arguments can be settled via pure semantics (i.e. the definitions of words). Then there can be no arguments about anything. Instead, all philosophical questions can be answered by simply looking up the definitions for the terms in a dictionary. Because your argument is that these definitions are perfect and unambiguous. Therefore all of philosophy is necessarily finished and the answers lie in dictionaries. That's basically your stance if you claim that these issues can be resolved by simply referring to the perfect definitions of words. Words are not perfectly defined, nor are they perfectly unambiguous. - Divine Insight .

(I know, some Christians will say or quote scripture where it say that we are not to argue, debate, quarrel about 'definitions of words', and if what I am doing here is what that really means, then Lucifer IS God, since the Bible even says he is the god of this world. So why argue about it right? Just accept that Lucifer is God so you don't go against Gods Word right? .. oh yea, they already did accept Lucifer, in the form of the Trinity, and in the plural demon form the one called; Legion.)

Now you're ranting about Christians again who don't agree with your personal views on God, the Bible, and religion.

Clearly you have a problem with lots of folks. Not just atheists.

Oh boy, .. now you make me wish I had more schooling where I could use bigger words to cover a greater area. But I still believe that the simple way is the best and the only way we can cover this.
DI, if I revealed 'a' God, it would be finite. You are still waiting for me to pick from one of your tens of thousands of gods that you have heard of and understand as gods.
You are supposed to make sure that I am revealing an Infinite, Eternal God as I promised. If we don't have a common understanding and agreement that finite can never be Infinite, then ANY god/gods will suffice. And then what? Then we're back to square one.

I don't see your problem with the conceptual difference between the finite and the infinite. You haven't even defined what it means for your God to be infinite?

In what way is your God "infinite"? In some mathematical sense of the term? Or are you using some totally different intuitive sense of the term?

If you're using the mathematical definition of infinity, then which of the infinite number of mathematical infinities best describes your God and why?

Great, and I also agree that there is other definitions of 'time'. I understand this entropic time only relates to decay from something that was originally perfect and built to last throughout IN eternity.

I certainly don't agree that we can know this to be true, but I'll entertain the possibility that something eternal may indeed exist that gave rise to our physical existence. And our physical existence does appear to be finite. I'll grant this appearance as well. Even though we can't actually know this to be fact.

You agree to this DI because it is the only thing that makes any sense, .. for now anyways, right? That something Eternal which would eliminate infinite regress, must have created the finite. This is logic, and science should be logical. We are not using religion, or the blind faith religions require for their followers to worship their god/gods and creators.

Eternity and infinity are not necessarily the same concept. I can imagine an eternal time without infinite time (at least in a quantitative mathematical sense).

Also, just because something is eternal doesn't mean that it needs to be conscious or know what its doing. So even if there is some eternal stuff that gave rise to the universe that alone would not even suggest that it has a conscious awareness or that it does anything with intent.

The existence of eternal time, or infinite stuff, does not automatically imply a conscious "Godhead".

And here is where my claim has to come true, that I CAN and will reveal to you a scientifically and mathematically possible Eternal and an Infinite God, as Zzyzx Post says, arian to present; "Undeniable and Scientific evidence of the Creator". A logical scientific explanation as I said many times; "Just as Newton did for 'gravity'."

Like I say, just because something is eternal or infinite doesn't automatically mean that it needs to be a consciously aware designer who has conscious intentions.

So if that's the basis of your argument then you have failed to convince me that any God exists, much less one that would be compatible with Hebrew folklore.

WHO, .. who observed a 13.5 billion year evolution?

We have. Looking out into the universe is the same as looking back in time. We have observed directly the evolution of the universe over the course of 13.5 billion years. We didn't need to exist back then to observe it today because thankfully the universe works as a time machine in terms of allow us to observe it in the past.

Outside of religious claims, please my dear friend (even if you do refuse to come and party with me, I'll even cook. And get Joey K to come too and we could share some of his 'private stash moonshine', umm, .. not that he has a still or anything!!! , .. please show me how someone so Intelligent and powerful would create a quantum speck of whatever and just allow it to be as it may, and create what it will through no plan or design of His. Why would an Eternal Creator build in entropy and chaos into this quantum speck and wait for chance and time to see what will happen to it? It doesn't make any sense? This is not how even a simple man like me would give 'evolution' even the slightest chance. Entropy, chance, chaos and time does NOT make 'evolution', quite the opposite. But entropy, chaos, chance in time WILL destroy a well designed universe and everything in it.

I see no reason to need to explain to you WHO would create such a universe since we have no reason to believe that a WHO was behind it.

However, just to entertain your party I can offer the following:

Even a God who threw dice to create a self-evolving universe would not be as big of a gambler as you might first suspect.

If you have a pair of dice you can't know what number will come up on any given roll. However, you can know that when you rolls those dice the only possible outcome can be an integer from 2 thru 12. You even know that it's not possible to roll a fraction, or an irrational number, etc. So you have total omniscience as to what is possible. But at the same time you have no clue which of the possible numbers will actually come up in any given throw.

This would be how a God who creates a self-evolving universe would do it. He would just toss his magic dice and allow the universe to evolve on it's own. Even he has no clue what will actually come up on any given throw. But he knows for certain what CAN'T come up. He also knows what's possible to come up.

So a gambling dice-throwing God has far more control over his self-evolving universes than you might first imagine.

In fact, to me personally it makes far more sense that a God would play this sort of game where he has no clue what's actually going to happen. That makes it more fun and interesting to him.

What you want is a God who controls precisely what's going to happen at every moment even reaching into the universe to fix things that haven't gone just as the God had planned.

But why would a God want to create a universe that's going to unfold precisely as he had planned? What would be the point to that? It would be far more interesting to just shoot craps and see what evolves.

So a crap-shooting God is highly likely if a God does exist.

And entropy starting from where? From the Planck Epoch for 13.75 billion years? Come on, now that takes some really blind faith to swallow.

Entropy is actually what makes things like evolution possible. You apparently see entropy as only allowing for the deterioration of things. But actually that's a wrong understanding of entropy. So it's no wonder that it makes no sense to you.

I also see no justification for your claim that the universe had to have been created without entropy time. I also see no justification for your reference to 6000 years.

OK, I'm just going by what I can observe scientifically, and I have observed that things rust, decay and die in time. Now if we took entropy out, well things would remain as they were created. If things improved, it would be because of what we do from intelligent design as we see to day, cities, phones, TV's, cars, plains etc. Or if God intervened and made things better. Other wise even the things we create in hopes to last eventually fall apart, .. in a very short time at that.

Again this is just your misunderstanding of Entropy. Actually entropy is the reason things can become more complex in pockets of the universe such as here on Earth.

You seem to think that Entropy is all about decaying into disorder. That's not true. That's actually a very popular misconception of the concept.

We have no idea how long the universe existed before the Creator introduced entropy (Fall of Adam), all we have is that it was introduced about 6,000 years ago, or after the fall. But because this is not about time and entropy and whether or not there is a purpose for the universe, but to reveal our Creator, well have to let this go for now.

Well you clearly have a very misguided understanding of entropy. It's not what you think. Entropy is not about decay. It's about thermodynamics, and it actually allows for things to become very complex and intricate under special conditions precisely like the Earth-sun system.

The energy from the Sun is what allows things to become more complex on Earth over time. Entropy is actually the very reason that things like evolution is possible. Entropy DRIVES evolution. Without entropy evolution would not be possible.

~~~~~

Well, I see you have tons more stuff posted in this post. I'm tired at this point and thus far all you have been doing is convincing me that you don't understand entropy, or physics. You don't seem to realize that when we look out into the universe we are seeing it as it was billions of years ago, so we are eye-witnesses to the evolution of the universe. It's not a theory, is evolving right before our eyes. And we can indeed observe the universe billions of years into the past.

You also seem to think that if you can make a case for some eternal essence to reality this would somehow prove the existence of an "Infinite God". But it wouldn't. All it would show is that the universe is made of some eternal substance. A secular scientist could actually discover this to be true and they wouldn't run around shouting that they had just "revealed God".

There is no reason to believe that just because something is eternal that it must be conscious or have intent.

So thus far you aren't fairing very well in terms of revealing any sort of God to me, and especially not one that would be compatible with Hebrew Mythology which would be an entirely different subject matter altogether

If anything you might convince me that Taoism might be true. But then again I already accept that possibility.

.

[Zzyzx]

.

The universe had a beginning and it was either Created (my claim) or it Big-banged (your understanding). Eternal can't have a beginning nor an end, or it is not eternal.

When one starts with a premise that they cannot prove truthful and accurate, the rest of their "argument"(no matter how convoluted or voluminous) which is based on that premise is at least questionable if not outright false.

It has NOT been established that the universe had a beginning. That is CONJECTURE, opinion, hypothesis, etc. Whether scientific or religious position, it cannot be demonstrated to be correct.

Perhaps you would like to back up and demonstrate that you KNOW and can verify with credible evidence that the universe had a beginning.

[arian]

Part 2 of 2

Is this the "Specific God" that you are calling THE Creator?

Yes sir, I am talking about the 'Creator', but we have to agree on certain things first, like that the brain does not create the mind. That it is the mind that controls the brain, and reads the info the brain is sending, and then analyzes it and responds accordingly.

I have no problem with that fantasy. I'll even grant that there could be physical reasons to back that up. However, those physical reasons require that we are this mysterious being that we call "God".

PERFECT, I believe you have, or should be imagine the concept.

We ARE this mysterious being we call God, and the serpent Lucifer, the Devil knew this, which is why he deceived Eve making her believe as if she wasn't.

(since we didn't finish setting the stage where we agree on certain things, you cannot say Eve never existed, or that Satan doesn't exist unless you are willing to forfeit Darwin, Einstein and all the other dead scientists that contributed to the Big bang evolution theory. It's only fair.)

I don't know if you realize this, but a God that is totally separate from us is far more complicated than a God-concept like is proposed in Eastern Mysticism.

God is an invisible Spirit. His mind, His hands, His feet, His face facing what He is concentrating on, His heart, everything is Spirit.

If He had a body, it would be like ours, us humans. He has a face, but is Spirit. But when he does something, or observes His creation, His face is turned towards whatever he is observing. Just like us, this does not mean that He is not paying attention what goes behind Him, what it means is that His attention is now lets say on us here debating about Him.

His hands are Spirit. He has a brain, only that too is Spirit. (Now I know how presumptuous this all sounds of me, God did not come to me with audible words and tell me these things, I am saying these things from what I observe in this universe and everything in it, especially us man because I read somewhere that we were created in Gods image. So I said; "Fine, let me see God through me!" and it all makes sense.

God IS totally separated from us, actually He created the impossible, other gods, only we are not 'besides Him', but IN him. Individual little gods IN God.

Gods brain.
We have brains, so God also must have a brain, and since God is Infinite, there is no limit to His storage capacity. God has a heart, and a mind which are also Spirit. Gods mind/spirit searches the deepest things about God, which are stored in His spirit/brain, and this makes perfect sense also. He feels anger, pity, remorse, jealousy, compassion, love.

So the Spirit in us, .. the breath of life that was given to Adam that makes us who we are is of God, and is God, the spirit part. I have been trying to figure out just how much of God is that Spirit part that is in us. From what I understand so far is that it is a simple clean slate, God but without all of Gods wisdom. Like our children, it contains all the trillions of information to keep a body alive, controlling all the brains bodily functions down to the atom, but without experience that the body will eventually accumulate.

So here we are, in a body designed in the likeness of God, only in a material body to distinguish one from another. Head, body, extremities, organs to keep the body alive and functioning, and to enjoy all the senses. The spirit in us is God, separated from God. we are our own individual beings, little gods with our own Godly free will.

this is why God cannot make us do things, He must teach us, allow us to experience things, to talk to each other and share others experiences, and sometimes like after the fall God will even coerce us to keep us one with Him, or

What was Gods plan in creating us?
The reason for our creation is one of the most fascinating, and mind boggling, heart wrenching things, .. that seeing what we are doing I can barely able to talk about, to a point of angering just thinking about it. Here we are debating whether or not God exists, and creating all kinds of ridiculous religions and gods to whom people will sacrifice even their own children to, when God is right here within our grasp, calling us by everything that is in creation. Then to keep ourselves distanced, we come up with such contradicting to everything we have observe through science, such totally ridiculous theories that it boggles the mind. Distancing ourselves from God by these outrageous stories we call wisdom, and those that seek God we call religious fanatics, simple minded loonies. Ayayay!

That would require that we are actually "individual spiritual souls" that are not only separated from each other, and separated from God, but also separated from physical reality. With all due respect that's a hell of a lot of separating.

We are individuals with individual free will, IN God, sharing the same physical reality. This is why we are to "love our neighbors as we love ourselves"

It is far more possible to get outside of our universe, then to separate from God, since we are all in God. The ONLY separation is our free will. If we choose to take the same road/goal as God (and He aims to please as any good father does) our life would be nothing but eternal joy at every turn, and would only get better with every achievement that we individually, with the mutual intent to benefit everyone, would make. The possibilities and the joys are endless.

Moreover, if we are conscious entities that are totally separate from God, then clearly we are just as sovereign as God is. Otherwise we couldn't be separate from God and still exist. The whole scenario of a "personified egotistical Godhead" that is completely separate from us is flawed in major ways.

We can hardly leave Earth, not alone the Universe. How do you see us existing separated from God in whom is our very existence? Once God gave us life as individuals, He had to provide everything for our sustenance. when our body dies, that individual god/spirit remains an individual, and is kept until that Great Day when He will give us New bodies. Both for those who chose to be with God and desire to enjoy the endless fun and joy set before us (as He originally planned), and also for those that have chosen every possible way to get away from God, who call our loving Father a personified egotistical Godhead, and many other demonized and blasphemous names.

Don't you see that we CAN 'do as thou wilt', and God keeps the sun shining on us, even though people curse the sun and demonize even that and make up lies that it will cause people cancer unless you cover yourself. Run and hide from that evil sun they tell you, and even if you hide, the Solar flare will destroy all electronics leaving earth desolate and unsustainable. Oh the horror of that sun, just waiting to annihilate all biological life! it is out to kill by any means, this bright horrible thing, the sun.
Instead of giving thanks to God for it since they know we would not exist even a week without it.

For example, the mind creates an electrical impulse to the brain to lift the persons hand, right? The brain responds. But we can do the same to another person, surgically remove his scull-cap and administer a small charge to that part of the brain and he lifts his arms, .. correct?

Yes that's correct. But just because this can be done doesn't mean that the mind is separate from the brain. It simply means that the brain can be forced to do things whether it wants to or not.

Yes, like a car or any other thing that we control. It responds to outside influence. The brain also responds to outside influence, and when no one is involved, the mind does all the controlling.

I mean, you give the example of placing an electrical charge to part of the brain forcing the body to lift an arm. But really that's not much different simply physically grabbing your arm and forcing you to raise it. In both cases your free will is being overridden. Neither case proves, nor even indicates that the mind cannot be a product of the brain.

OK then, you know what? I will not even go there. It's fine, your brain creates the impulse received from your hand to pick up the pencil, then the fingers tell the brain to draw, .. but wait, why does the finger and the hand need the brain then? For what, to get permission from the brain or something?

You see, the brain does not create that charge, the mind does. Or another person. The brain just reacts to the minds instruction, and other times the mind receives and reads the brains activity like sensory perception. "Ooh, that's smooth', or 'Ouch, that's sharp!'

This doesn't mean that the mind can't still be a function of the brain.

If you've read many of my posts you should understand by now that the important question is not what is "controlling" the brain but rather what is it that is having an experience?

A lot of things go on in my computer, I never heard it giggle or show any emotion. The experience of let's say a game on it is all mine, the programmer and the experiencer. If the brain was to control the trillions of impulses needed for the body to make a simple thing like a basket, it would literally fry.

This question remains even with the idea of a God that is totally separate from us. If we are a "soul" that is separate from God, then it must be this soul that is having an experience. The problem here is that this "soul' must then be as sovereign as God in terms of it being an individual entity that is capable of having an experience.

Just like on a computer, it is I who program it to do what I want, and I am the one gets the enjoyment out of it.

My brain is the transmitter of my spirits commands to the body, and then receives info from the body like if the body twisted an ankle, the ankle then sends the pain info to the brain and the mind interprets it, and responds to what should be done.

We can put the body with the brain to sleep, and our mind will have to wait for it to be responsive again to be able to do anything with it. The spirit in us is responsible for the bodies well being, but if the body becomes sick, we need someone else to come and help get it well again. So the spirit in us is actually responsible not only for its own body, but the body of others also. The brain just waits for instructions.

These religions that have an external Godhead that is totally separate from us do not resolve this problem. On the contrary, they actually make the problem far more complicated.

So Evolution solves everything, right? Only how do you explain free will in evolutionary terms where free will does not exist? Where only; "NO WILL" of anyone exist?

When the wind blows a man over, it just lays there until time and chance eventually brings it upright again by some outside force, or it will die laying there.

You've already mentioned the Higgs boson. So you're going to work up from the Higgs Boson and show that the God of the Bible has to be true?
Personally I think you've got one whale of a job cut out for you.

Just as you couldn't build an entire car from a single bolt, you could never create an entire complex universe from a speck of quantum string, from a gravitational wave, or a Higgs boson.

Actually this isn't true. Quantum Field Theory is far more interesting and dynamic that you apparently realize.

There are a lot of dynamic stories that are interesting, but did they create a universe?

Unless now you're saying that the universe didn't evolve from a string, or a gravitational wave, or a Higgs boson in no-thing?

(I like how the gravitation wave is said to have been before gravitation, like a wave that creates the boat!?) I know, its still only 'work in progress'. Who knows where the story goes in a hundred or thousand years, right?

But taking it one step at a time, I hope you're going to make a case for why there needs to be a Creator of any kind at all. And I imagine this is going to have something to do with the Higgs Boson, otherwise why bother to even mention the Higgs Boson?

Why the need for a Creator? Well it just seems that all we humans ever do is contemplate, plan, design, create. I mean I know enough about computers to know the work that goes into even the simplest apps on our phones, and some are truly amazing. I also worked as a CNC Machinist, and just to machine an impeller, it takes dozens of engineers, programmers, brilliant machinists to set up and make those programs work creating some truly amazing parts for the Jet Engine. So I don't know, but just maybe observing ourselves always dreaming up concepts, then watching ourselves creating all the time may have been the cause for the idea of a 'Creator'. We humans create, then who created us and the things we didn't, you see what I mean?

Yes I do see what you are saying. And I have argued many times that this universe seems to be quite profound for having just been an accident that happened to evolved into sentient creative beings such as us.

However, this is not proof that a God exists. After all, if a God exists surely it would be far more intelligent and creative than us. Therefore we must apply the same reasoning to it. How could it have come to be if it hadn't been "designed".

That argument seems to fail when taken to the ultimate conclusion. And I tend to agree with the secular atheists on that one. Something had to be first, why not us?

No, that idea would be based on error, like infinite numbers. No matter how fast you count or how long, the following number will always be finite. There is no 'infinite numbers' or infinite anything other than God our Creator.
Creator created all things, and He IS, as in "I Am Who I Am". everything falls in proper order after that, no infinite regress, no paradoxes, just a Creator and the rest is created.

But secondly, this line of reasoning would never point to the God of the Bible anyway. The God depicted in the Bible is anything but creative. Everything he is said to have done is extremely mundane, and pretty much par for the course as ancient mythologies go.

Hey, .. that's not fare. Look what our Creator is up against, .. creators like the Higgs boson and gravitation banging universes into no-thing. I mean who could compete against such creative specks?

The very idea of being appeased by blood sacrifices is a very common superstitions common to almost all ancient god myths. Nothing creative there.

Having a demigod son to a virgin human female is also old hat in terms of ancient mythologies. That was even done in Greek mythology long before Christianity.

I don't see a particularly creative God in the Bible.

I will not debate religions, only what I feel is pertinent to revealing Creator to you.

I don't see animals worry about things like that, it seems to be a human problem only; "Hmm, .. I just have this deep-gut feeling someone like us created us and everything we didn't?" I mean come on DI, you never get this feeling? If not, can you explain why not?

Sure, I've had those thoughts. But again, nothing that would point me to the Bible. In fact, when I think about an intelligent God I typically think of one that would be far more intelligent than the Bible. Nothing in particular. Just my own abstract intuition. But then if I go read the bible my very first thought is, "This book is not describing the God I had intuitively imagined."

And I came to the opposite conclusion, I said; "by George this is exactly how I imagined a Creator!" only the Bible also explains the why's and how's that we observe through science. Or why am I here? Who am I, what for, what's the plan, .. everything.

I have no problem with a God existing. In fact, if a genuinely intelligent God actually exists I can't imagine that God having any gripes with me. There is absolutely no reason why a seriously intelligent God who is compassionate, understanding, and loving, should have any bone to pick with me.

DI, I honestly never heard or seen evidence of our Creator God pick on you. But boy oh boy, you sure berate Him. You mock Him, you belittle Him, you make fun of Him, you call Him it and all kinds of other names, yet not once did I hear Him complain about you. I guess God IS Love ay? Any of your other gods would have strike you down with their lightning bolts or something by now.

Or maybe you're just not worth Gods time, and he has eternity at His disposal. Don't you just feel insignificant now? But don't worry, you are worth a lot more than many sparrows. He is waiting for that breaking moment when you step down from your self created and appointed thrown.

On the contrary I would imagine that such a God would be well-pleased with me.

So I have no problems with a truly decent God existing.

I just don't see that scenario in Hebrew Mythology.

Me either, myths, science fiction are interesting though, but not in defining our Creator God. Stories depicting how billions of years ago specks suddenly expanded in no-thing may sound interesting to some, but to me it's terribly boring and senseless.

It's like: "See this universe? No you don't it's just a speck. Really only you need a Huge particle collider to see this."

The rest is more religious stories about your faith.

There, now I revealed Creator God to you. Please let's try not to put religion into this it is becoming way to long to respond. What you say buddy?

Thanks again DI.

[Divine Insight]

There, now I revealed Creator God to you. Please let's try not to put religion into this it is becoming way to long to respond. What you say buddy?

Thanks again DI.

You haven't revealed anything to me that I don't already know. Moreover, YOU are the one who insists on putting religion into the mix.

What did you just say in your post here?

DI, I honestly never heard or seen evidence of our Creator God pick on you. But boy oh boy, you sure berate Him. You mock Him, you belittle Him, you make fun of Him, you call Him it and all kinds of other names, yet not once did I hear Him complain about you. I guess God IS Love ay? Any of your other gods would have strike you down with their lightning bolts or something by now.

Your above paragraph is a total fabrication of your own misguided imagination.

Not only do I believe that a God might exist, but I actually hold that potential God in extreme high regard even in light of the fact that it may not exist at all. This is why I have searched for mystical philosophies that actually have the potential of describing a respectable God. That's how much respect I have for a God should one actually exist.

Now you might ask, "Well then why in the world would you doubt this God's existence? That doesn't seem very respectful". But actually it is. I cannot know that a God exists. That a simple fact of reality. Therefore for me to pretend that I can know would be a lie. A false pretense. At best I can hope that a genuinely respectable God might exist. But that is nothing more than HOPE. The "substance of Faith" so the Bible says.

Do I hope there's a God. Sure, that would be better than not. But only if that God truly is respectable. Otherwise it would be an untrustworthy demon.

You claim this about me: "But boy oh boy, you sure berate Him. You mock Him, you belittle Him, you make fun of Him, you call Him it and all kinds of other names, yet not once did I hear Him complain about you."

Where have you ever heard me say a bad word about God?

I have never said a bad word about God in my entirely life.

What I have said is that the God portrayed in Hebrew mythology is a disgusting immoral male-chauvinistic pig that I wouldn't even remotely care to be associated with much less worship.

But that's RELIGION Arian. That a very specific God myth. If I said the same things about Zeus you wouldn't think there is anything wrong with that at all. Who cares what I say about Zeus, Zeus isn't God right?

Well that's the way I feel about the Hebrew Yahweh and his supposed demigod son Jesus. I'll even grant that Jesus seemed like a half decent character. But I see no reason to believe that he was the demigod son of Yahweh.

I'm a nice guy too. That doesn't automatically make me God.

You are confusing RELIGION with God, all the while that you demand that I should not do this.

And look at what you say here:

Or maybe you're just not worth Gods time, and he has eternity at His disposal. Don't you just feel insignificant now? But don't worry, you are worth a lot more than many sparrows. He is waiting for that breaking moment when you step down from your self created and appointed thrown.

What throne are you talking about?

And why are you making assumptions about God's relationship with me? Don' t you think you should leave that up to God?

Your personal assumptions about me and my relationship with a God are nothing more than a totally unwarranted fabrication of your own imagination.

Moreover, all of your conclusions along these lines are clearly based on RELIGION, and specifically Hebrew mythology. Something that you claim you don't even want to talk about.

~~~~~

On a more positive note, many of the more abstract concepts that you have suggested about what God might be like are actually far more in line with Eastern Mysticism such as Taoism, etc.

You say:

We ARE this mysterious being we call God, and the serpent Lucifer, the Devil knew this, which is why he deceived Eve making her believe as if she wasn't.

You're actually suggesting here that Eastern Mysticism is correct and the Hebrews are the ones who have it all wrong in their Bible.

I would be the first to agree that this does indeed make far more sense.

We are individuals with individual free will, IN God, sharing the same physical reality. This is why we are to "love our neighbors as we love ourselves"

It is far more possible to get outside of our universe, then to separate from God, since we are all in God. The ONLY separation is our free will. If we choose to take the same road/goal as God (and He aims to please as any good father does) our life would be nothing but eternal joy at every turn, and would only get better with every achievement that we individually, with the mutual intent to benefit everyone, would make. The possibilities and the joys are endless.

Again you're giving a picture of Eastern mystical views of God, not the Christian Biblical view of God.

Also, may I ask you: "Are you enjoying endless joys in this life?"

And if so, then why are you wasting your time debating with me about God on this forum? And especially why do you rant so negatively about scientists, atheists, and even what other Christians believe?

For someone who believes there are endless joys by being on the same road with God you don't seem to be very happy. You seem to be extremely frustrated with scientists, atheists, and even Christians who don't see things your way. That doesn't sound like your in a state of endless joy.

I mean, even if you disagreed with all these people I would think that if you are in a state of endless joy you'd have better ways of expressing your divergent views on God.

I would personally expect anyone who has truly had a "Divine Experience" or a genuine "Divine Relationship" with a Supreme Creator to be able to convince others of their views without frustration or any need to negatively rant about those who don't yet see the "Divine Picture".

We can hardly leave Earth, not alone the Universe. How do you see us existing separated from God in whom is our very existence? Once God gave us life as individuals, He had to provide everything for our sustenance. when our body dies, that individual god/spirit remains an individual, and is kept until that Great Day when He will give us New bodies. Both for those who chose to be with God and desire to enjoy the endless fun and joy set before us (as He originally planned), and also for those that have chosen every possible way to get away from God, who call our loving Father a personified egotistical Godhead, and many other demonized and blasphemous names.

And once again your "Ranting" about the objections that people have with a very specific RELIGION.

You keep implying and insinuating that people who reject Hebrew mythology precisely because it doesn't portray a very nice God, are actually claiming that God is as despicable as the Hebrew mythology.

How can you now see the error in your perspective?

If I thought that an actual real God was as disgusting as the Bible says, then I would actually believe that the Bible is the word of God! I reject that the Bible is the word of God precisely because it's disgusting.

I try to keep opening your eyes to this by bringing up Greek mythology and Zeus.

If I were to tell you that I think Zeus is a disgusting God you wouldn't think that I was saying anything bad about God at all. Why not? Because you don't see Greek mythology or Zeus as having anything at all to do with God. You might even think Zeus is disgusting yourself. But you wouldn't think twice about it because you don't view Zeus as God. For you Zeus is just a totally fictional character that has nothing at all to do with God.

Well, DUH?

That's how I view Hebrew mythology. I don't see the God portrayed in the Bible as being anything more than a totally fictitious character no different from Zeus.

Therefore when you say things like: "and also for those that have chosen every possible way to get away from God, who call our loving Father a personified egotistical Godhead, and many other demonized and blasphemous names"

That most certainly doesn't apply to me. I don't call God any names. Nor do I call God a personified egoistical Godhead.

What I do is point out that Hebrew mythology has painted that picture of "God". And it is precisely because I don't believe that any actual God could be that disgusting is why I reject Hebrew mythology.

Are you understanding any of this?

I have NO PROBLEM with any God that might actually exist.

But I do have problems with immoral barbaric mythologies that make God out to be an immoral idiot.

I reject mythologies, not God.

I have no clue whether a God even exists and I must confess to the TRUTH of this. Why should I lie and pretend that I can know something I can't know?

Even if a Creator God does exist I see no reason to rush off and worship Greek or Hebrew mythology.

On the contrary I would become a Taoist Monk first.

Taoism is a highly respectable portrait of God. You'd be hard-pressed to find a more respectable religion. Also, Taoism isn't a mythology. It makes no absolute claims to "know" that a God exists. At it's core (underneath any religious dogma that people may have inadvertently placed on top of it) it's a philosophy that simply proposes what a potential God might be like. And it's so in harmony with natural reality that it has every possibility of being true. But even with all that going for it, it could still be nothing more than wishful thinking.

But no, I have nothing derogatory to say about God.

But I will point out the extreme flaws and absurdities in Middle Eastern mythologies like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. These religions boast of having a "jealous-God" themselves. His ego is boldly proclaimed right in their Ten Commandments. And all the way though the book he's condemning "heathens" who refuse to believe in him.

It's a self-derogatory picture of God. This is why I reject it as being nothing more than man-made mythology. Immoral mythology at that.

So I hope this clears some things up for you.

[arian]

Look, is the number '1' finite or infinite? You agree it is finite. Now let's roll these numbers at the rate of an atomic clock, for lets say billions and billions of years.

Then stop.

Lets say the number is something like 10^2,000,000,000 power (too long to list here) no matter how big, but we still have a number, correct? Is this number finite or infinite? There cannot be 'more then ONE Infinite, one is all we need, and One is all we have.

I agree with that completely. And I have no problem with that. I also agree that we only have a need for ONE concept of infinity. Yet, ironically our mathematicians have defined many different sizes of infinite. According to them not only is there more than one infinity but there are infinitely many different sizes of infinity.

I totally disagree with our current mathematical formalism on this issue. But that's a whole other story.

You haven't shown that anything that is "infinite" exists. I might warn you ahead of time that eternal time does not imply an infinite thing either. But again that's a whole other story as well.

Thanks again DI

So here we are, you guys hinting that I'm just rambling trying to avoid the question, while you and Zzyzx keep correcting me with clear and concise responses

.... NOT!

Just as I sat up in my chair as I read your agreement with me on 'infinite', .. you refer back to mathematicians as if they ruled over the word. We were so close, darn, Shucks, .. and your right, I mean who can go against such brilliant minds as those famous mathematicians throughout our history?

There is one person raising his hand, and yep, it's me arian.

As I tip-toe through the pages of information on what exactly is the purpose of the Large Hadron Particle Collider I understand, .. I think because it is not very clear since they have all these different formulas, and different particles that they are looking for to throw me off, but I believe from what little info I could squeeze out from different articles, that the main purpose is to find the "God Particle" or in another statement I read; "the answer to everything" particle.

(which is another reason I was hoping to set a mutually agreed upon ground rules to eliminate other non-God ideas, or gods created by religions)

As I searched, I was just bombarded with one mathematical equation after another. It seems that Einstein's formula E=mc2 is everywhere, in our GPS satellite computers, the Large Hadron Collider in figuring out what the Hadron sensors are actually seeing/observing since these particles are traveling at 0.999,999,991 C, and time dilation, length contraction and relativistic mass have to be considered (Lorentz Factor), and the Magic, the diversion, the carefully staged delusions and illusions became more and more evident with every paragraph.

Now if I understood right (you are free to correct me, and I will not require that you guys specifically define YOUR version of a word like 'and', and every other word in your statements), that these particles are colliding into each other, but since nothing can travel faster than light, even if the opposing bunches of particles each traveling the near-light speed, they cannot pass C heading into each other correct?

Another words particle bunch A is registering on the LHC sensors as traveling at 0.999999992 C and bunch B is also registering traveling at 0.999999992 C, they still crash into each other at 0.999999992 C, .. am I correct?

If so, I have a question: In relativity, especially in special relativity at these high speeds, particle bunch A even though it is traveling near-light speed is at its 'rest frame', and only sees bunch B moving, correct? And I understand that this is just one of the limitations, or rules put on C to remain the fastest that anything could travel in our universe.
Now 'at what speed does particle bunch A sees particle bunch B coming towards it?'

The Hadron sensor is observing a frame where there are two bunches of particles heading straight into each other, particles A, and particles B. Does the Hadron sensors sense only the speed each one is traveling and document that these particles collided at 0.999999992 C?
But in reality, if I was driving at 60 mph and hit another car head on at that same speed, the relativity effects of the crash on me and the other driver, or should I say the 'reality' effect would be that of a crash at 120 mph.

So that I make myself absolutely clear before I come to some erroneous conclusion about the long established fact of the Big-bangs foundation, this "God Particle" and gods in general which both you and Zzyzx clearly find me in error, actually so far in everything I said seems to be in error and could not be agreed upon by either of you. Neither the term 'Infinite', 'Eternal', the 'nothing or no-thing that your universe is expanding in', 'time', the complete distortion of natural laws that apply to quantum physics, .. it seems you believe I am misinformed in just about every point I made so far. So if you claim I am wrong, it would be kind and only fair-debate for you to correct me where I am wrong, not just say that I am wrong.

Also it is only prudent for me to investigate just how much you know, how much you take for granted because "well they are physicists and they should know", how much of what you guys say is based on blind faith since it is obvious that both of you are very religious because of your hold on some religious doctrines and can't seem to deviate from them, and also .. in what you base your world-view on, and as you mentioned in you example of "definitions of words", you seem to be a big supporter of the idea; "a World without rules/laws!", where no matter what I say, does not necessarily mean exactly what I say. Another words, as in your example, "what do I mean by the word 'you'?" Or what do I mean by the word 'how'? etc. which reveals a total pre-denial of anything that I will say. I am sorry, but I am not getting on YOUR stage.
Unless we set some standards, which by the last posts on this subject is obvious you refuse to do, I also refuse to continue to debate since as in your example, even basic words are meaningless, or can be construed to mean just about anything YOU choose to mean.

Unless of course you are panicking which is the reason that you are desperately trying to create a diversion hoping to stop me from proving once and for all the existence of our Creator God outside of religious indoctrination, using the proper definition of science and philosophy, in that one observes and honestly reports what they observe on the world around us, in a form of philosophy that seeks only the truth in a thing.

Since the 'God Particle' is such a huge topic in un-scientific religious circles, if you continue to use such senseless, pointless and worthless statement as the 'God-particle or the 'answer to everything particle, Higgs boson, string theory etc, .. I will reveal the evil intent, how they are using illusions and delusions used in simple magic to deceive the audience by this Large Hadron Particle Collider which as fancy as it may look, IMHO I doubt it could accurately measure the speed of a duck flying through it and smacking against a wall, much less particles that are much smaller then atoms.

So what do you say guys? Are you going to keep derailing my honest attempt in revealing God our Creator? If so, then I will reveal the "God particle illusion/delusion" and the billions they stole from us in building it just for this this deceitful purpose since with our information network, even someone unschooled as I am can figure out that quantum physics is a lie and the LHC is a magical delusion to keep the world from coming to the knowledge of God, our Creator.

As for your post Zzyzx regarding the 'beginning of the universe', my answer is; if it is expanding, it is finite. If you can measure ANY part of it, .. it is finite. If you and I live in it, I'm telling you it is finite, not infinite. The history book the Bible says; "God created the Heavens and the earth" it has a beginning.
And no finite can ever reach infinite, that's just simple logic any child should understand.

This is why these things are happening, in order to force people to believe in all this "Big-bang, God Particle" delusion. First they had to destroy basic logic (DI is a very good example of this when he mentions his respect and belief in God: "I said God, I wasn't talking about God", lol) they destroy the basic laws of the universe, meaning of words, the meaning of right and wrong, where now we have a country where it used to be the example of freedom, but now "you are guilty until found innocent!" And by whom? By a group of local arresting policeman. They are judge, jury and executioners right there on the street.

E=mc2, ... what a joke. "Children, .. do you know why grandpa Einstein squared C which he claimed is the fastest anything in our universe could travel? Because he was a Jew wanting to survive. By this, he also was made very famous. E is a very special illuminati number, it is an infinite god which is used everywhere as a worship-symbol."

This is why we must agree on some basic, basic things first before you could admit to the obvious presence of our Creator God which I am trying to reveal to you.

[arian]

... <snip>

Your above paragraph is a total fabrication of your own misguided imagination.

Not only do I believe that a God might exist, but I actually hold that potential God in extreme high regard even in light of the fact that it may not exist at all. This is why I have searched for mystical philosophies that actually have the potential of describing a respectable God. That's how much respect I have for a God should one actually exist.

Now you might ask, "Well then why in the world would you doubt this God's existence? That doesn't seem very respectful". But actually it is. I cannot know that a God exists. That a simple fact of reality. Therefore for me to pretend that I can know would be a lie. A false pretense. At best I can hope that a genuinely respectable God might exist. But that is nothing more than HOPE. The "substance of Faith" so the Bible says.

Do I hope there's a God. Sure, that would be better than not. But only if that God truly is respectable. Otherwise it would be an untrustworthy demon.

You claim this about me: "But boy oh boy, you sure berate Him. You mock Him, you belittle Him, you make fun of Him, you call Him it and all kinds of other names, yet not once did I hear Him complain about you."

Where have you ever heard me say a bad word about God?

I have never said a bad word about God in my entirely life.

What I have said is that the God portrayed in Hebrew mythology is a disgusting immoral male-chauvinistic pig that I wouldn't even remotely care to be associated with much less worship.

So I hope this clears some things up for you.

Yes, that clears everything about you up for me, and I thank you.

I don't like them mythological gods because I know who they are, demons trapped in the supernatural realm waiting for Gods judgment on them, and they are pissed. They go around raging like a roaring Lyon trying to devour whomever they can with deception, lawlessness, false short term promises. And I also know whom they pick and choose to divine for them, very intelligent and worldly-wise people who open up to them and welcome them into their body-soul-and minds.

But don't worry DI, they can't get too far with Believers who know God our Creator outside of all them religions. These highly educated mediums can make a lot of money, some even claim to be billionaires, because their expertise as deceivers. Of course since the god of this world has the ability to reward them, they follow his divinations to a T.

Any ways, I was hoping by now we leave all the Roman, Hindu, Hebrew, Egyptian mythologies along with all their gods behind, or at least outside of our conversation. Why you keep bringing them back again?

You must of have had a terrible life trapped in some cult for many years to keep bringing all those nightmarish demigods with their myths up all the time. As I said many times, religions destroy truth with their god/gods and their indoctrinations.

Hey buddy, how about we get back on track with this OP? Just sayin', you know!?

But I do see that the evil one is working on you trying to hold you back. Pray my friend because I am praying for you too. Once you understand our Creator through a clear lens, not that fogged by religions and their mythical gods they praise so much, and even study them as theology in Schools of Divinity, but a clear scientific picture of our Creator, you will be set free of these demons.

None of us can truly be free from them for they are everywhere, especially that I have been answering this post. Pray for me too, and I'm telling you, just clear them glasses and God will reveal Himself to you. It's like seeing the world and everything in it from a distance, clearly, not being trapped in this religious mud we both agree is just nauseating.

Take care my friend.

[Zzyzx]

.

So that I make myself absolutely clear before I come to some erroneous conclusion about the long established fact of the Big-bangs foundation, this "God Particle" and gods in general which both you and Zzyzx clearly find me in error, actually so far in everything I said seems to be in error and could not be agreed upon by either of you.

Correction: Zzyzx does NOT debate origin of the universe, god particle, infinity, etc and does not express opinion or pretend to have knowledge about such things.

As for your post Zzyzx regarding the 'beginning of the universe', my answer is; if it is expanding, it is finite. If you can measure ANY part of it, .. it is finite. If you and I live in it, I'm telling you it is finite, not infinite.

Speculation concerning the origin of the universe is meaningless to Zzyzx. What you speculate concerning the origin is less than meaningless

The history book the Bible says; "God created the Heavens and the earth" it has a beginning.

The bible may be regarded as a "history book" in church or in Christendom; however, it is NOT so regarded in debate here in the C&A Sub-forum. Those who wish to elevate the bible to history book status are welcome to do so in Holy Huddle or TD&D sub-forums.

This is why we must agree on some basic, basic things first before you could admit to the obvious presence of our Creator God which I am trying to reveal to you.

All you have revealed so far is total inability. EXACTLY what basic things must "we agree" upon in order for you to "reveal" your "knowledge?"


Just lay out your evidence without fancy footwork, speculation, word salads or smoke screens and let everyone decide if it is anything more than "blowing smoke."

[Divine Insight]

But I do see that the evil one is working on you trying to hold you back. Pray my friend because I am praying for you too. Once you understand our Creator through a clear lens, not that fogged by religions and their mythical gods they praise so much, and even study them as theology in Schools of Divinity, but a clear scientific picture of our Creator, you will be set free of these demons.

Thanks for the offer to assist in the exorcism of my demons. However, at this point in time I don't feel that's necessary. The only demon I currently have in my life is my cat. And even he only become a demon on the rare occasion when I run out of cat food. He simply won't eat anything else. He will only eat a special brand of dry cat food that he's used to. As long as he has that magic spell he's the most charming cute little ball of fur. But run out of that sustenance and he becomes an impossible demon. You have no choice but to rush out to the store and purchase some more cat food. It's the only way to exorcize his demonic tendencies.

On a slightly more serious note, I don't have the obsessive anxieties with a physical universe having sprung into existence from a quantum fluctuation that you seem to be possessed by. A detailed study of physics could potentially exorcise those demons from you. Although, I confess that my study of physic has spanned many decades and many of these concepts were not easy to grasp. It took me many years to come to my current understanding of physics.

You may find this ironic, but I actually find our current model of a "Big Bang" universe to be quite ingenious. I mean, if this is how a creator God had created physical reality it's a pretty darn clever mechanism I think. Especially if the intent was to create a random temporary incarnation that could unfold on its own. And that seems like a reasonable intent to me.

And finally, I have no clue whether there is an eternal entity behind our creation or not. But what I have come to realize is that it doesn't matter. And it especially doesn't matter whether or not I believe in this concept. You suggest that I may need to be freed from demons. But I think I was freed from demons many years ago. And possibly since birth. My main philosophy as always pretty much been "Que Sara Sara, whatever will be will be". In short, I'm content with whatever reality turns out to be.

And if you think about this further, the only "Real Demon" that has ever truly been proposed to me is the Demonic God of Christianity. I mean, here is a religion that is proclaiming that the greatest demon of all is potentially my very own creator! No one but this God himself can threaten to curse me with everlasting punishment. That's got to be the most power demon ever. I don't think there exist a more dangerous demon that this in all of mythology.

Gee whiz a universe that randomly arose from a quantum fluctuation promises to be a far more gentle kitten.

[Divine Insight]

E=mc2, ... what a joke. "Children, .. do you know why grandpa Einstein squared C which he claimed is the fastest anything in our universe could travel? Because he was a Jew wanting to survive. By this, he also was made very famous. E is a very special illuminati number, it is an infinite god which is used everywhere as a worship-symbol."

This is why we must agree on some basic, basic things first before you could admit to the obvious presence of our Creator God which I am trying to reveal to you.

If you want to agree on some basic ground rules may I suggest the following rules:

1. Demonstrating that any current physical theory is false or wrong does not constitute "revealing" a God.

2. E=mc² works. It's clearly a correct quantitative relationship that actually gives the correct results of the behavior of our physical universe.

3. Your personal misunderstanding of physics and/or inability to accept it does not constitute having "revealed" a God.

If you can agree to these basic ground rules perhaps we can move 'forward'. Or perhaps you would like to drop out under these rules since all of your arguments thus far appear to have taken the following form:

"I personally don't believe that modern day physics has a clue, therefore I claim that this reveals that there must be a God".

This appears to be your sole argument up to this point.

My rebuttal to your argument is as follows.

A. Your personal disbelief in modern day physics doesn't demonstrate that it's wrong.

B. Even if you could demonstrate that modern physics is wrong (which you haven't even come close to doing), that would not "reveal" that there must be a God.

And finally:

C. Even if you were somehow miraculously able to demonstrate both of the above. That physics is wrong, and this somehow leads to a conclusion that there must be a God. You would still be far from having demonstrated why anyone should give a hoot about middle eastern religious mythologies.

~~~~~

So with all due respect Arian. Even though exchanging conversations with you has been entertaining, you haven't made one iota of progress in making a case for your claim to be able to "reveal" any God. Much less a God that would need to be associated with Hebrew mythology.