What is Christianity "designed to accomplish"?

[Zzyzx]

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In one of the threads someone commented on what Christianity was designed to accomplish.

1) Who decided?

2) What is accomplished (or intended)?

[RaiderGonzo]

Dang ZYX, you're that old? Ok, I'll courteously bow to your incredulity., there is a saying that the devil is wiser not because he is the devil, but because of his age., LOL

My faith is my faith., what can I say? Nothing else makes real sense to me no matter how much and how many years I have spent trying to get away from it.

Ultimately as it is said in some veteran circles, there ain't no atheist in the foxhole, right?

Good chopping it up with you.

[Zzyzx]

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RG,

Thank you for the pleasant and thoughtful response. It is a pleasure to answer such posts.

Dang ZYX, you're that old?

Chronologically I turn 75 in December (born 1939 – pre-war model). However, personally and physically I am not bound by the calendar. I recently took a "fitness age test" and was rated 56 or 58). I was in the 101st Airborne Division 1958 to 1961 – and have stayed in shape since. Check out more in the Physical Fitness and Health sub-forum http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... m.php?f=70

Ok, I'll courteously bow to your incredulity

I ask and expect NO consideration for age – but mention it when experience is important. After seeing nine decades (count them starting with the thirties) one gains a certain perspective.

., there is a saying that the devil is wiser not because he is the devil, but because of his age., LOL

I have occasionally been equated with the Devil – with some justification perhaps.

My faith is my faith., what can I say?

That is all you need to say. I NEVER question, criticize, or challenge anyone's faith – but DO challenge statements made in public (particularly in debate) and DO challenge claims of knowledge that I suspect cannot be verified.

Nothing else makes real sense to me no matter how much and how many years I have spent trying to get away from it.

Each of us has to follow the paths WE decide upon.

Ultimately as it is said in some veteran circles, there ain't no atheist in the foxhole, right?

That is an utterly false statement.

http://militaryatheists.org/atheists-in-foxholes/

MAAF maintains a roster of Atheists in Foxholes, just in case there are any rumors that we don't exist. The next time you hear someone repeat that old myth, just send them here to see how atheists have served honorably in combat - always have, always will.

Besides the MAAF members below, keep in mind atheists in foxholes whose stories have been in feature stories and documentaries: Pat Tillman, Afghanistan war Army Ranger and football player, Hans Kasten, WWII POW leader, Phil Paulson, Vietnam Veteran and activist, Kurt Vonnegut, WWII POW and author, Ted Williams, WWII Veteran and baseball player, Ernest Hemingway, WWI Vet and author, Sherwin Wine, Founder of Humanistic Judaism, Major Sidney Excell, who arrested Heinrich Himmler, Bob Kerrey, former Governor and Senator, Navy Seal, and Medal of Honor recipient

A far better quote is

“People say there are no atheists in foxholes. A lot of people think this is a good argument against atheism. Personally, I think it's a much better argument against foxholes.�

― Kurt Vonnegut

[myth-one.com]

By hearing the Word, faith comes., the Word of God is the good news of the gospel., you are drawn to His gospel because it is written for you., it is not a secret text that no one cannot master, for it is a gospel of good news., all it takes is for you to stop being hostile to its message and read., let the Good Spirit do the rest in your heart and mind., it's not that hard., not unless you're afraid to come to the light which may expose the innermost side of you.

Welcome RaiderGonzo! I've enjoyed your posts.

Actually, the written word, or scriptures, is said to be sealed until the end of times:

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot for it is sealed: (Isaiah 29:11)

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Daniel 12:4)

Even the twelve apostles did not understand the scriptures until Jesus opened their understanding shortly before ascending into heaven:

Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (Luke 24:45)

However, although God sealed the scriptures, He also provided us the key to unsealing the scriptures:

And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. (Matthew 21:22)

Therefore, before reading the scriptures, one should kneel in prayer asking God to open their understanding of the scriptures, believing that He will do so.

And it will be so.

[Zzyzx]

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Welcome RaiderGonzo! I've enjoyed your posts.

I agree

Actually, the written word, or scriptures, is said to be sealed until the end of times

Do you offer this as a true statement?

What does "sealed" mean in this context?

Since "the written word" HAS been changed, augmented, edited, revised, etc -- and since original documents do not survive, HOW can that claim be made with a straight face?

[myth-one.com]

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Welcome RaiderGonzo! I've enjoyed your posts.

I agree

Actually, the written word, or scriptures, is said to be sealed until the end of times

Do you offer this as a true statement?

What I truly have to work with is the various english versions of the Bible.

The original scriptures were oral as far as I know according to the Bible:

For the prophesy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (II Peter 1:21)

So you make a good point, thanks.

A true defensible statement (I believe) would be:

"It is written in the Bible that the scriptures are sealed from mankind's understanding until the end of times."

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. (Isaiah 29:11-12)

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Daniel 12:4)

Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (Luke 24:45)

Where "book" may or may not refer to the scriptures or Bible.

But Luke definitely states that the apostles did not understand the "scriptures."

What does "sealed" mean in this context?

I think it means made incapable of being understood.

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 34 by myth-one.com]
Myth One,

You make a good case for the "scriptures" (or bible or oral tales or whatever) being considered as NOT understandable by humans -- including "Apostles" and presumably therefore popes, preachers, prophets and devout followers.

What, then, is the value of "scriptures"since they cannot be understood? Why pretend to understand what bible tales mean? Why claim to know what Jesus is said to have meant by words attributed to him?

[myth-one.com]

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[Replying to post 34 by myth-one.com]
Myth One,

You make a good case for the "scriptures" (or bible or oral tales or whatever) being considered as NOT understandable by humans -- including "Apostles" and presumably therefore popes, preachers, prophets and devout followers.

What, then, is the value of "scriptures"since they cannot be understood? Why pretend to understand what bible tales mean? Why claim to know what Jesus is said to have meant by words attributed to him?

There were two competing factions in the Garden of Eden -- God and Satan. Both Adam and Eve chose evil over good by believing Satan's lie that "Ye shall not surely die."

Once they believed the lie of their immortality, God's plan could never ever make sense to them -- as it says exactly the opposite -- that the wages of sin is death.

This original sin brought sin upon all mankind, as well as instilling the idea that a part of every human will live forever after their physical body dies.

Virtually every Christian church admits to a belief in the rejoining of this immortal part of man with an incorruptible physical body at the resurrection. This is known as the "resurrection of the body" doctrine.

They teach that this incorruptible physical body is different from the present earthly body in that it cannot be destroyed or killed. Therefore, when nonbelievers are cast into hellfire, they will suffer the pain of burning alive for eternity. The fire will never kill them.

What a wonderful "Christian" concept! And what garbage!

This is how mankind sealed God's plan from his understanding, and this is how Satan condemned the future Christian Church to failure.

The best way of living was given to man and he seals it from his own knowledge by believing one lie -- his immortality.

Why?

I think it's a case of learning by failing.

That is, little Johnny doesn't learn not to touch the the hot stove when his parents command him not to touch the hot stove.

He learns not to touch the hot stove by touching it and being burned.

Likewise, we are learning to fear God and keep His commandments by running the world our way and failing.

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What, then, is the value of "scriptures"since they cannot be understood?

Every man or woman is in a similar situation as Adam & Eve. They have the two choices. The answers are still there for them, but they cannot unseal them if they cling to the lie that they are immortal.

At the end of times, the scriptures will be unlocked when Satan is locked away for the 1000-year millennium. We will then understand everything.

The answers were there on our coffee tables under our noses. But we did it our way.

What fools we were . . .

It's a simple Father/Son or Parent/Child learning experience.

Anyway, that's the story.

[ttruscott]

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[Replying to post 34 by myth-one.com]
Myth One,

You make a good case for the "scriptures" (or bible or oral tales or whatever) being considered as NOT understandable by humans -- including "Apostles" and presumably therefore popes, preachers, prophets and devout followers.

What, then, is the value of "scriptures"since they cannot be understood? Why pretend to understand what bible tales mean? Why claim to know what Jesus is said to have meant by words attributed to him?

The reason as I see it for their being sealed is to lead people away from trusting their own interpretations of scripture but to turn them to GOD to seek HIM and HIS interpretation of scripture. It is part of the "we must live by faith, not proof" thing.

Also, the fact that if they are indeed sealed, even to everyone, does not mean that parts may not be unsealed and the interpretation given to someone...including any of the servants of the church you list.

Peace, Ted

[Zzyzx]

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You make a good case for the "scriptures" (or bible or oral tales or whatever) being considered as NOT understandable by humans -- including "Apostles" and presumably therefore popes, preachers, prophets and devout followers.

What, then, is the value of "scriptures"since they cannot be understood? Why pretend to understand what bible tales mean? Why claim to know what Jesus is said to have meant by words attributed to him?

There were two competing factions in the Garden of Eden -- God and Satan. Both Adam and Eve chose evil over good by believing Satan's lie that "Ye shall not surely die."

Correction: There are TALES in Jewish literature ("borrowed" by Christianity) that CLAIM to know about events in a proposed "Garden of Eden." There is NO assurance that those tales are anything more than imagination, fiction, folklore, wishful thinking, religious promotion, etc.

Keep in mind that 1. We are debating Christianity, pro and con, for and against, not debating with the assumption that Christianity is true. 4. Unsupported Bible quotations are to be considered as no more authoritative than unsupported quotations from any other book. 5. Please avoid "preaching" and using the forum as simply a way to blast people with the gospel message. This is a debating forum, not a convenient place to overtly proselytize. 6. Realize that most participants here are strong debaters and have a vast knowledge of Christianity and the Bible (including non-theists). If you make any claims, be ready to support your claims with evidence if asked. Non-Biblical evidence would go far among non-theists.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... ba6e3a0946

Virtually every Christian church admits to a belief in the rejoining of this immortal part of man with an incorruptible physical body at the resurrection. This is known as the "resurrection of the body" doctrine.

It would be prudent to consult sources such as http://www.newspolls.org/articles/19603 which indicate that most Americans do NOT believe the "resurrection of the body." If virtually every Christian church teaches such things (which is disputed) they are not convincing their parishioners.

Most Americans doubt the resurrection of the body
Byline: Thomas Hargrove and Guido H. Stempel III
Source: Scripps Howard News Service
Date: April 05, 2006

Most Americans don't believe they will experience a resurrection of their bodies when they die, putting them at odds with a core teaching of Christianity.

The findings of a new Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll surprised and dismayed some of the nation's top theologians since it seems to put Americans in conflict with both the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed, ancient statements of faith meant to unify Christian belief.

The Nicene Creed, adopted in 325 at the First Council of Nicea under Roman Emperor Constantine, concludes with the famous words: "We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

Similarly, the Apostles' Creed professes a belief in "the resurrection of the body."
Only 36 percent of the 1,007 adults interviewed a month ago by the Scripps Survey Research Center at Ohio University said "yes" to the question: "Do you believe that, after you die, your physical body will be resurrected someday?"
Fifty-four percent said they do not believe and 10 percent were undecided.
"This reflects the very low state of doctrinal preaching in our churches," said Al Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., and editor of the Southern Baptist Journal of Theology.

"I continually am confronted by Christians, even active members of major churches, who have never heard this taught in their local congregations," Mohler said. "We have a lowest-common-denominator Christianity being taught in so many denominations that has produced a people who simply do not know some of the most basic Christian truths."
http://www.newspolls.org/articles/19603

If the tale was true and accurate representation of the event / conversation, the "God" purported to have said "surely you will die" was not telling the whole truth -- which would have included "you will die someday of natural causes, illness or injury and will not be immortal." Creating the impression that eating a fruit will result in death is misleading at best.

Perhaps, instead the tellers of the tale didn't get it right -- OR the whole thing is myth, fable, folklore, fiction or fraud.