Let's cut to the chase: did the resurrection happen?

Haven · Post by **Haven** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:36 pm

Recently, there have been a lot of threads on topics related to the resurrection of Jesus (empty tomb, supernaturalism vs. naturalism, historical records, and so on). I think it may be helpful to discuss the big picture: did the resurrection of Jesus happen or not? This thread is the place to discuss it: offer any argument for or against the resurrection. Hopefully this will be a good discussion.

Debate question: Was Jesus resurrected from the dead?

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Thread rules:
1) Offer evidence or logical argument. Simply providing Bible quotes isn't sufficient.
2) Faith, while valid on a personal level, isn't evidence for a claim. Provide empirical evidence from history, textual criticism, physics, and so on, not simply statements of faith.
3) Be kind to each other. All of us, regardless of our religious position, are conscious beings deserving of respect and civility.

DanieltheDragon · Post by **DanieltheDragon** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:36 am

[Replying to post 30 by DefenderofTruth]

It's not because we reject Paul's vision as a reason to reject visions. It is because visions are specifically unreliable and unverifiable.

DefenderofTruth · Post by **DefenderofTruth** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:40 am

DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 30 by DefenderofTruth]

It's not because we reject Paul's vision as a reason to reject visions. It is because visions are specifically unreliable and unverifiable.

Ya we have been over this, you wouldn't trust your own perceptions if they told you Jesus Christ is of truth. You wouldn't trust a supernatural personal vision if God revealed himself to you...

DanieltheDragon · Post by **DanieltheDragon** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:55 am

DefenderofTruth wrote:
DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 30 by DefenderofTruth]

It's not because we reject Paul's vision as a reason to reject visions. It is because visions are specifically unreliable and unverifiable.
Ya we have been over this, you wouldn't trust your own perceptions if they told you Jesus Christ is of truth. You wouldn't trust a supernatural personal vision if God revealed himself to you...

How do you propose verifying a vision? Would you believe in a vision of Mbumba ?

Zzyzx · Post by **Zzyzx** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:00 am

.

DefenderofTruth wrote: You wouldn't trust a supernatural personal vision if God revealed himself to you...

If (for sake of discussion) a magical / superhuman entity DID appear and claimed to be God, HOW would anyone know it was not actually "Satan" pretending to be God?

According to Christendom "Satan" is a great deceiver with superhuman capabilities, right?

Or, could such an apparition be one of the thousand of other "gods" or even an advanced alien with amazing "superhuman" capabilities?

If whatever it was claimed to be God (knowing that humans tend to believe in gods), how would YOU know it was an imposter?

antonenus · Post by **antonenus** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:59 am

DefenderofTruth wrote: What kind of evidence would you accept?

This would be acceptable:

Matthew 24:31-33 (NKJV)

31 â€œWhen the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

I wonder where and how we will all be gathered.

DefenderofTruth · Post by **DefenderofTruth** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:10 am

Zzyzx wrote: .
DefenderofTruth wrote: You wouldn't trust a supernatural personal vision if God revealed himself to you...
If (for sake of discussion) a magical / superhuman entity DID appear and claimed to be God, HOW would anyone know it was not actually "Satan" pretending to be God?

According to Christendom "Satan" is a great deceiver with superhuman capabilities, right?

Or, could such an apparition be one of the thousand of other "gods" or even an advanced alien with amazing "superhuman" capabilities?

If whatever it was claimed to be God (knowing that humans tend to believe in gods), how would YOU know it was an imposter?

Well you can test spirits by Christ's name, the 3 epistles of John talks about that and this video is kind of profound that talks of that

DefenderofTruth · Post by **DefenderofTruth** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:15 am

antonenus wrote:
DefenderofTruth wrote: What kind of evidence would you accept?
This would be acceptable:

Matthew 24:31-33 (NKJV)

31 â€œWhen the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

I wonder where and how we will all be gathered.

Ok, so a supernatural event would prove it to you.. Is that what you are saying?..noted..thanks...

antonenus · Post by **antonenus** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:24 am

DefenderofTruth wrote:
antonenus wrote:
DefenderofTruth wrote: What kind of evidence would you accept?
This would be acceptable:

Matthew 24:31-33 (NKJV)

31 â€œWhen the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

I wonder where and how we will all be gathered.

Ok, so a supernatural event would prove it to you.. Is that what you are saying?..noted..thanks...

A supernatural event of this magnitude, verifiable by the entire world population, yeah. A single vision to myself or anyone else, no.

Would you be convinced and convert to Islam if Mohammed appeared to you or one of your friends with 72 virgins in a dream/vision?

DefenderofTruth · Post by **DefenderofTruth** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:31 am

antonenus wrote:
DefenderofTruth wrote:
antonenus wrote:
DefenderofTruth wrote: What kind of evidence would you accept?
This would be acceptable:

Matthew 24:31-33 (NKJV)

31 â€œWhen the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

I wonder where and how we will all be gathered.

Ok, so a supernatural event would prove it to you.. Is that what you are saying?..noted..thanks...
A supernatural event of this magnitude, verifiable by the entire world population, yeah. A single vision to myself or anyone else, no.

Would you be convinced and convert to Islam if Mohammed appeared to you or one of your friends with 72 virgins in a dream/vision?

lol... so only certain supernatural events... only if other humans were involved... you guys are a bunch of crackpots...

But Ya quite possibly that would effect me if i had such a vision... I don't know why i would think that a powerful personal vision would have no effect on me, and i don't know why you say it wouldn't effect your beliefs... Pretty foolish to say that if you ask me...

If God revealed, one way or another, that the true religion was Islam i don't know why id say otherwise...

antonenus · Post by **antonenus** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:48 am

DefenderofTruth wrote: lol... so only certain supernatural events... only if every other humans were involved... you guys are a bunch of crackpots...

Not the only, but that is one that would work.

DefenderofTruth wrote: But Ya quite possibly that would effect me if i had such a vision... I don't know why i would think that a powerful personal vision would have no effect on me, and i don't know why you say it wouldn't effect your beliefs... Pretty foolish to say that if you ask me...

If God revealed, one way or another, that the true religion was Islam i don't know why id say otherwise...

I guess the rationalist just believes that visions are far (near infinitely?) more likely to be of natural occurrence rather than supernatural, let alone believing one from a ~ 2000 year old story. Which I would say is the rational explanation, as we know that they are in fact a natural occurrence and we have no decent evidence of any 'supernatural visions' (do we even have a definition for a supernatural vision?).