Why no straight answers?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Zzyzx
Site Supporter
Posts: 25089
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:38 pm
Location: Bible Belt USA
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 73 times

Why no straight answers?

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

Paprika
Banned
Banned
Posts: 819
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:07 pm

Post #31

Post by Paprika »

[Replying to post 19 by acapiz]
Nobody has the foggiest clue about this God thing, apparently. That's scary!
It boggles the mind that the possible difference in God's intervention in the life of an average mouse versus that in the life of an average human is somehow significant.

What next? Will the interventions over sea urchins versus otters be the next burning question Christians must provide a straight answer to?

Paprika
Banned
Banned
Posts: 819
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:07 pm

Re: Why no straight answers?

Post #32

Post by Paprika »

Hamsaka wrote:
Paprika wrote:
Hamsaka wrote:
Paprika wrote: What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Roman tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that Julius Caesar was stabbed by a team of conspirators?

Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting this basic belief about Roman history must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it"?
I'll take your word for what you say you ate for lunch yesterday, because eating lunch is not an extraordinary feat. I'll look at you askance if you claim you flew from LA to Newark airport after you ate lunch.

The assassination or attempt to it of a Roman emperor is not as prosaic as 'what Paprika ate for lunch yesterday', but it is still not particularly extraordinary, like you flying across the US.

The OP gives a list of crucially extraordinary claims lacking any evidential support whatsoever. Your question is not relevant to the topic, and could be described as a typical dodge, a category fallacy, and answering a question with another question in hopes of shifting the heat away from an honest answer.
See? No straight answers.
Irrelevant.
Quite relevant. I'll repeat myself: you and others can't provide 'verifiable evidence' for an 'ordinary' event under certain conditions; why should you expect me to provide 'verifiable evidence' for an 'extraordinary' event under what are virtually the same conditions?
What 'verifiable evidence' of such a alleged 'ordinary' historical event in ancient history, (with no physical evidence remaining (eg monuments)) can be produced when all the sources are ruled out? None.
Precisely correct. And, irrelevant again. This thread has a topic we should stick to. In an attempt to recast your post as actually addressing the OP, I brought in the reasoned, rational process of accepting 'ordinary' versus 'extraordinary' claims, and necessity of a different approach to each. In your first post, you appeared to be attempting to equivocate 'ordinary' and 'extraordinary', a common fallacy proposed by theists who rationally understand the difference but due to pride or confusion, cannot acknowledge it.
Pretty hard for me to equivocate those words when I didn't actually use them in that post.
And yet even though such alleged 'ordinary' events can't been proven or supported by 'verifiable evidence' under '"no sources allowed" conditions' you demand that others prove alleged 'extraordinary' events (eg. the resurrection) in such a fashion. What a hoot.
Dreary and boring on this end :D . When such 'ordinary' events such as the assassination of Julius Caesar can be conflated with the miracle of a god writing a Bible, or making himself born of a virgin, or sacrificed for the blood atonement of your sins and mine, then you may have a point. [/quote]
Quite relevant. I'll repeat myself this once: you and others can't provide 'verifiable evidence' for an 'ordinary' event under certain conditions; why should you expect me to provide 'verifiable evidence' for an 'extraordinary' event under what are virtually the same conditions?
The Bible isn't considered sufficient evidence for the claims it makes for obvious reasons. The Bible is itself a claim
So are the writings of the ancient historians we possess. They're all 'claims' so, according to the methodology propounded in the first post, cannot be validly used to answer historical questions at all.
If the Bible claims of ordinary events can be shown to be nothing more than the moral justifications of the writers (false, in other words), then the Bible's extraordinary claims (miracles, suspension of the laws of physics) suffer an even worse fate in debate.
If the premise is true, then perhaps the conclusion follows. But without such demonstrations I think we can all chalk this down as 'wishful thinking'.

Paprika
Banned
Banned
Posts: 819
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:07 pm

Re: Why no straight answers?

Post #33

Post by Paprika »

DanieltheDragon wrote:
Paprika wrote: What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Roman tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that Julius Caesar was stabbed by a team of conspirators?

Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting this basic belief about Roman history must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it"?
I like that you open up with a no straight answer response. The story of Julius Caesar's death is rather dubious. Even most people's surface knowledge is dependent on a quip from a playwright.

Why sidetrack the discussion though. The point is that most people don't claim this story as factual. The problem one runs into is when someone is asserting something as fact.
Most historians do. Yet by the criteria established in the first post all the written sources that they use to establish this event are merely 'claims', 'hearsay', etc etc etc, and aren't allowed.

So what I have successfully highlighted is the ridiculous ruling out of bounds of the relevant evidence that would make many historical events unprovable precisely because the sources are just ruled out a priori.

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11064
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Post #34

Post by ttruscott »

DanieltheDragon wrote:
ttruscott wrote: I suppose a straight answer could be that, like the a blind cannot know light, the unspiritual cannot perceive spiritual things, if we are to believe the Bible, one of the source books about spiritual life anyway.
So a straight answer is we are incapable of believing any of your claims on the bible?

Makes debate and evangelist type work equivalent to running on a treadmill huh?
I don't know what you mean but from the Christian pov, you must be called by GOD and brought to repentance and rebirth by HIM to understand.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11064
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Post #35

Post by ttruscott »

Zzyzx wrote: .
Dropship wrote: In 13 years of internet debating, I've never yet seen an atheist or nonchristian give a plausible answer to the question- "What would have been the Bible writers MOTIVE for making it all up?"
Instead they simply chant the mantra below over and over again (yawn).
Boredom noted. Perhaps closer attention to what is actually said would relieve that problem -- though actual arguments are more difficult to address than are straw men.

Criticism of Bible tales is generally NOT in the form of accusation that Bible writers were lying. In fact, I do not recall that argument being presented more than once in a great while.

Instead, what IS said is that Bible tales cannot be shown to be anything more than folklore, legend, fable, and/or myth passed down for decades or generations before being recorded by religion promoters who cannot be shown to have had ANY personal knowledge of the events and conversations about which they write.

....
And all this is because you do not only not accept the answers GOD has to give you [which cannot be shown to be anything more than], but you are relieved by the rules of debate to never having to deal with them.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

DanieltheDragon
Savant
Posts: 6224
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:37 pm
Location: Charlotte
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Why no straight answers?

Post #36

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 33 by Paprika]
Most historians do.
Do I look like a historian? Do I claim to be a historian? This argument you are proposing only exists for "most historians". I have been consistent on the matter. What we have regarding the death of Julius Caesar are from Plutarch and Suetonius. They could very well have been exaggerating their claims. So I don't say it was a fact I say according to Plutarch and Suetonius there was a plot to have him assassinated. Just like I say according to the Gospels there was a guy named Jesus and he died on the cross. There is other ways to verify that Julius Caesar existed there is not for Jesus. We even have works authored by Julius Casesar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentar ... uthfulness

and coins with his image while he was alive

Image

There is even a possible bust while he was alive



Image

So my best conclusion is that Julius Caesar existed and he was an Emporer of Rome. The details surrounding his death remain dubious but it is what it is.

Jesus could have or could not have existed. The available information we have cant really go either way. The details and claims of the bible are dubious and there is nothing to support their veracity.
Post 1: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:48 am Otseng has been banned
Otseng has been banned for having multiple accounts and impersonating a moderator.

Paprika
Banned
Banned
Posts: 819
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:07 pm

Post #37

Post by Paprika »

So you concede that by the criteria provided, you can't prove that the assassination of Julius Caesar - accepted by most historian - actually happened. And why is this so? The extremely unreasonable criteria proposed in the first post make such history impossible.

What evidence do you have that Socrates existed? Or Plato? Or Aristotle? What verifiable evidence can you present besides Greek hearsay, stories, opinions, and the lot?

As to whether Jesus existed, even the famous critic of mainstream Christianity Bart Erhman has written a book just to counter the ahistorical nonsense peddled out by many skeptics.

"But Bible stories, hearsay, and opinion should not be allowed as evidence to be evaluated and sifted!", some will cry. Go tell that to Ehrman :D

DanieltheDragon
Savant
Posts: 6224
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:37 pm
Location: Charlotte
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #38

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 37 by Paprika]
So you concede that by the criteria provided, you can't prove that the assassination of Julius Caesar - accepted by most historian - actually happened. And why is this so? The extremely unreasonable criteria proposed in the first post make such history impossible.


I concede that by the criteria provided the assassination of Julius Caesar might not have happened as described by Plutarch. I would also argue there appears to be a bit of embellishment.

That being said it is also reasonable to conclude he was assassinated. Maybe not in the manner described by Plutarch but there is a preponderance of evidence to suggest his reign ended suddenly and with intent.
What evidence do you have that Socrates existed? Or Plato? Or Aristotle? What verifiable evidence can you present besides Greek hearsay, stories, opinions, and the lot?


Reached a dead end and decided to move the goal posts?
As to whether Jesus existed, even the famous critic of mainstream Christianity Bart Erhman has written a book just to counter the a historical nonsense peddled out by many skeptics.


This is a misrepresentation of my position. I have already conceded that Jesus could have existed. Where I differ is that I am unwilling to jump to conclusions based upon what scant evidence we do have. I agree with Erhman on a lot of things and his Hypothesis to the existence of Jesus has some merit. I don't think it is quite strong enough to be convincing though. So I remain unable to affirm that Jesus did indeed exist in the manner as described in the bible.

I think there are two fallacies if you want to keep pushing this argument forward.

1. You need to establish that most historians over 50% threshold claim that the assassination of Caesar described by Plutarch is factual.

2. That establishing the veracity of something is unreasonable with regard to belief.

edit:

2a. That the claims of the gospels are equal to the claims about Caesar in terms of reasonability.
Post 1: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:48 am Otseng has been banned
Otseng has been banned for having multiple accounts and impersonating a moderator.

Zzyzx
Site Supporter
Posts: 25089
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:38 pm
Location: Bible Belt USA
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 73 times

Post #39

Post by Zzyzx »

.
ttruscott wrote:
Zzyzx wrote: Criticism of Bible tales is generally NOT in the form of accusation that Bible writers were lying. In fact, I do not recall that argument being presented more than once in a great while.

Instead, what IS said is that Bible tales cannot be shown to be anything more than folklore, legend, fable, and/or myth passed down for decades or generations before being recorded by religion promoters who cannot be shown to have had ANY personal knowledge of the events and conversations about which they write.
And all this is because you do not only not accept the answers GOD has to give you
What besides unverified religionist claims indicates that any gods gave me ANY answers?

If God is supplying answers why do Apologists seem to be short on convincing answers in these debates?
ttruscott wrote: [which cannot be shown to be anything more than], but you are relieved by the rules of debate to never having to deal with them.
Reasoning and experience, not "rules of debate", indicate that I need not "deal with" propositions that cannot be shown to be anything more than imagination.

There is no need to "deal with" threats and promises attributed to any of the thousands of proposed "gods" (or leprechauns, or super-heroes, or any other fictional characters).
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

User avatar
Wootah
Savant
Posts: 9487
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 228 times
Been thanked: 118 times

Re: Why no straight answers?

Post #40

Post by Wootah »

Zzyzx wrote: .
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

What could possibly constitute verifiable evidence?

Even if Jesus was here and now and raising people from the dead on a repeatable and regular basis we could still claim we can all do it if we discover his secret. In fact it would be evidence that it is something about science we don't understand.

I think a soul is debatable.

Even if God appeared now and said, "Bible writers were actually inspired by God" that is still not proof.

What we have is a certainty about history that we would not doubt except for the claims that history makes on us and our desire to not listen.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

Post Reply