According to Genesis how long did the flood last?

[Zzyzx]

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According to Genesis how long did the flood last?

Simple question. Straight forward answer?

[Zzyzx]

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Genesis 8:4, 5 reads "In the seventh month, on the 17th day of the month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Arʹa·rat. And the waters were steadily decreasing until the tenth month. In the tenth month, on the first of the month, the tops of the mountains appeared."

Withing the context of ever decreasing water level, the accounts makes two clear statements in chronological order:

1. The Ark runs aground on Mt Ararat
2. "The Mountains" become visible

NOTE Genesis says that three months after running aground, the tops of "the mountains" appeared; what it does NOT say is that Mt Ararat had NOT appeared previously. Keil-Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament, Volume 1, page 148, suggests this probably refers to “ [...] the tops of the Armenian highlands, by which the ark was surrounded.� If that was indeed the case, then Mt Ararat towers nearly 1000 feet higher than the hightest peak in this mountain range. Thus logically it would be some time before these lower peaks ("the mountains") appeared. In any case that the lower mountain ranges (which ever they were) became visible to Noah after having run aground on is no more contradictory than is saying " The man ran over a dog. Two weeks later he saw dogs."

That is quite a creative stretch (complete with graphic simulations) attempting to reconcile contradictions and inconsistencies in the ancient tale.

It has the water dropping 1000 feet in 72 days -- fourteen feet per day (presumably worldwide unless the characteristics of water have changed).

Where did the water go -- since oceans must have had the same depth of water over them?

Notice also that the dove is said to have returned after finding no place to perch AFTER the mountain tops became visible -- and months after the ark grounded on Mt. Ararat -- while the water was decreasing 14 feet per day during those months.

Is it not more rational to conclude that the ancient tale is myth, legend or folklore rather than a literal account of an actual event?

[JehovahsWitness]

Where did the water go -- since oceans must have had the same depth of water over them?

I will remind you once again (since it seems to keep slipping your mind) of the debate question:

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According to Genesis how long did the flood last?

Simple question. Straight forward answer?

I will attempt to make things simple for you with an illustration: WHERE Sarah went AFTER the party (indeed how she get out of the party) is irrelevant to the {to quote the asker} "simple" question : "How long was she AT the party?"

Indeed I am indulging you by even discussing the logistics of the process, after all the question was not how scientifically convincing is anything in the account, only what does the account SAY (paraphasing). So, all we really need is what is the starting point and what is the ending point and how long between the two points. Still, I'm having fun so I'll cut the sloppy debating focus some slack. I will not, however, indulge you to the point of allowing the introduction of irrelevant questions; especially as another specific thread has been posted (by someone) for those interested for anyone interested in discussing other specifics of the account.

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None of those questions are relevant to the question Under debate.

You have made a valid point. There is now a separate thread to discuss those items.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 164#755164

Regarding the rate at which the waters decended, please see question #3 in the thread linked above (hopefully for you, someone will address this issue).


JW

[Zzyzx]

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Where did the water go -- since oceans must have had the same depth of water over them?

I will remind you once again (since it seems to keep slipping your mind) of the debate question:

.
According to Genesis how long did the flood last?

Simple question. Straight forward answer?

I will attempt to make things simple for you with an illustration:

Condescending attitude noted.

WHERE Sarah went AFTER the party (indeed how she get out of the party) is irrelevant to the {to quote the asker} "simple" question : "How long was she AT the party?"

A valid issue is "Was she at the party at all?" Is there assurance that she arrived and evidence of when she left?

Indeed I am indulging you by even discussing the logistics of the process, after all the question was not how scientifically convincing is anything in the account, only what does the account SAY (paraphasing).

Don't go out of your way to "indulge" me. I am merely presenting ideas for READERS to consider (500 views of this thread so far).

The Genesis account SAYS different lengths of time for the flood duration.

So, all we really need is what is the starting point and what is the ending point and how long between the two points.

Okay. Identify the ending point according to the tale. Was it when:

1) The dove supposed returned with an olive leaf?
2) When tops of mountains became visible?
3) When all water had disappeared ("drained") from the Earth?
4) When the ground was dry?
5) When the people and animals left the ark (seven months after it grounded)?

Still, I'm having fun so I'll cut the sloppy debating focus some slack.

Derisive remarks toward debate or debaters is not civil, contributes nothing to debate, and is not allowed under Forum Rules.

While we may be "having fun" it is useful to keep in mind that readers evaluate the merits of ideas presented – a factor often overlooked by those attempting to "win" debates or points.

I will not, however, indulge you to the point of allowing the introduction of irrelevant questions; especially as another specific thread has been posted (by someone) for those interested for anyone interested in discussing other specifics of the account.

It is not your right to disallow anyone from posting whatever they choose. The MOST that can be legitimately done under Forum Rules and Guidelines is to report infractions of rules. No one is empowered to be "Forum Police" – that position does not exist here.

None of those questions are relevant to the question Under debate.

You have made a valid point. There is now a separate thread to discuss those items.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 164#755164

Regarding the rate at which the waters decended, please see question #3 in the thread linked above (hopefully for you, someone will address this issue).

That issue has been well considered (by some) in the thread mentioned. It does not seem as though the flood tale "holds water." other than hypothetically or as legend, fable, folklore.

[JehovahsWitness]

A valid issue is "Was she at the party at all?" Is there assurance that she arrived and evidence of when she left?

That would indeed be a valid issue IF the that was the question for debate. However if the question was "according to XY how long was she at the party" then the only consideration would be what did XY say about she arrived and about when did they say she left?

I am merely presenting ideas for READERS to consider (500 views of this thread so far).

Yes, but my understanding is, in a debating forum, those ideas must be directly related to the question of debate. I have lots of unrelated ideas I would like readers to consider about a wide variety of topics . Feel free to clarify to what point I can randomly insert my ideas into unrelated debates threads, for the benefit of readers.

[JehovahsWitness]

The Genesis account SAYS different lengths of time for the flood duration.

You will need to substantiate this assersion. But in order to do so you must first establish, precisely what you are refering to when you say "the flood"

- "the flood" the period when the rain was falling?
- "the flood" the period when the water level was rising?
- "the flood" the period when water levels rose beyond normal?
- "the flood" the period when life outside the ark was no longer possible?
- "the flood" the period when the entire planet was submerged in water?
- "the flood" the period during which the ark was floating?
- "the flood" the period during which the family lived Inside the boat?
- "the flood" the period between the falling of the first drop of rain and the family leaving the ark?
- "the flood" the period from when life was not longer possible outside the ark to the time and the family leaving the ark?
-"the flood" the period between the falling of the first raindrop and the return of the waters to the level before that moment?

In short: When you say "the flood" what precisely do you mean and how do you apply that term to the genesis account to establish that different durations have been given.

Even in secular terms, "the time my kitchen flooded" ("the flood" in my kitchen) could encompass the everyday equivalent of most, if not all of these meanings. So it seems reasonable - and it is certainly good debate form, to established the parimeters of a claim such as the one you have made (ie define your terms)

[Zzyzx]

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A valid issue is "Was she at the party at all?" Is there assurance that she arrived and evidence of when she left?

That would indeed be a valid issue IF the that was the question for debate. However if the question was "]according to XY how long was she at the party" then the only consideration would be what did XY say about she arrived and about when did they say she left?

Okay. According to Genesis when did the flood END. Was it:

1) The dove supposed returned with an olive leaf?
2) When tops of mountains became visible?
3) When all water had disappeared ("drained") from the Earth?
4) When the ground was dry?
5) When the people and animals left the ark (seven months after it grounded)?

I am merely presenting ideas for READERS to consider (500 views of this thread so far).

Yes, but my understanding is, in a debating forum, those ideas must be directly related to the question of debate. I have lots of unrelated ideas I would like readers to consider about a wide variety of topics . Feel free to clarify to what point I can randomly insert my ideas into unrelated debates threads, for the benefit of readers.

While complaining about me departing from the question of debate kindly notice that complaining is departing from the question of debate . . . .

No one is empowered to be unofficial "Forum Police" (though some try). If any posts violate Forum Rules and Guidelines the ONLY appropriate action is to report the infraction – NOT discuss the matter in threads. Admin and Moderators will consider the merits of each case.

In short: When you say "the flood" what precisely do you mean ]and how do you apply that term to the genesis account to establish that different durations have been given.

My reference to "the flood" means precisely the flood described in Genesis. Is there some doubt about which flood is being discussed?

Even in secular terms, "the time my kitchen flooded" ("the flood" in my kitchen) could encompass the everyday equivalent of most, if not all of these meanings.

Okay. When did the kitchen flood end? Was it when water ceased flowing in? When chairs became visible? When the cat went in or out? When the water had drained away? When the floor visibly dried? When the family began using the kitchen again seven days later?

The person telling the kitchen flood tale and saying or implying that it ended should be able to specify the starting and ending points.

So it seems reasonable - and it is certainly good debate form, to established the parimeters of a claim such as the one you have made (ie define your terms

Since it is not my story or one that I support, proponents of the story should be the ones to say what marked the beginning and the ending of the flood and its duration – rather than asking others to do so.

[bluethread]

Since it is not my story or one that I support, proponents of the story should be the ones to say what marked the beginning and the ending of the flood and its duration – rather than asking others to do so.

It may not be your story, but it is your thread. You are the one who made the following enquiry.

According to Genesis how long did the flood last?

Simple question. Straight forward answer?

Straight forward answer, one year. Anything more is not a straight forward answer, but involves analyzing the intent of the question.

[JehovahsWitness]

So it seems reasonable - and it is certainly good debate form, to established the parimeters of a claim such as the one you have made (ie define your terms

Since it is not my story or one that I support, proponents of the story should be the ones to say what marked the beginning and the ending of the flood and its duration – rather than asking others to do so.

It may not be your story but it is your assersion about the story. You say:

The Genesis account SAYS different lengths of time for the flood duration.

You wrote the above, therefore it is reasonable for me to ask for clarification. You obviously HAVE a paremeters of what you call "the flood" and have decided YOUR definition of "the flood" has been applied in the same way in the ancient text and that it has been done inconsistently therein.

My reference to "the flood" means precisely the flood described in Genesis.

Excellent, so this statements implies YOU know "precisely" what the expression "the flood" means in Genesis (if you did not you couldn't know that your reference matches the Genesis meaning "precisely"). Would you please present evidence for assesion this.


JW