Dan Barker's Easter Challenge (for PinSeeker)

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Here is Dan Barker's famous Easter Challenge for Christians :
https://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/stone.php

'' I HAVE AN EASTER challenge for Christians. My challenge is simply this: tell me what happened on Easter. I am not asking for proof. My straightforward request is merely that Christians tell me exactly what happened on the day that their most important doctrine was born.

Believers should eagerly take up this challenge, since without the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Paul wrote, "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not." (I Corinthians 15:14-15)

The conditions of the challenge are simple and reasonable. In each of the four Gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book: Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and Paul's tiny version of the story in I Corinthians 15:3-8. These 165 verses can be read in a few moments. Then, without omitting a single detail from these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension: what happened first, second, and so on; who said what, when; and where these things happened. ''

Are you up for the challenge, PinSeeker ?
Or any other Christian here ?

Let's be clear -
your account cannot OMIT anything from those source accounts.

Kapyong

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Actually... You know, why re-create the wheel? Here you go:

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/rezrvw.php

Now, admittedly, I didn't read it yet, but I will.

Pardon ?
You didn't even READ IT yet ?

Well, I DID read it - and guess what ?

That page does NOT answer the challenge at all !
Tekton does NOT provide a continuous coherent narrative of Easter Sunday as requested by the challenge.

Instead,
we get the usual apologetic nonsense preaching about why each of the listed contradictions can be explained away by showing how black = white.

Literally - in the first case of WHEN they arrived :

• Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1)
  Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV)
  Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV)
  John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1)

Here is Tekton's answer :

The times are read as, "as it began to dawn," "very early in the morning," (twice), and "when it was yet dark". All of these are subjective readings that are fully capable of describing the pre-dawn twilight just before the sun peeks over the horizon. In an era before precision clocks for all but the wealthy, this is hardly an issue -- and at worst an example of Rihbany's ma besay-il.

Frankly, that is an insult to our intelligence.

It is NOT dark as the sun rises. Darkness ends an hour or two before the sun rises. Light increases until the sun fills the sky with light as it rises. It is not dark at sunrise.

But dark = light, black = white.

That is - if you're an apologist trying to reconcile these completely contradictory accounts.

Or 'Rihbany's ma besay-il' - it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter that they obviously contradict. Because faith.

There may be some things in there that I might quibble a bit with. But at the very least, it dispels your claim that no one has ever been able to answer it.

No it doesn't.
The challenge is to present a continuous coherent account of Easter Sunday which includes all the details from all the accounts.

Tekton doesn't even TRY to do that.

I think you simply did a google search, and then posted the first apologist site which you think answered the challenge - even admitting that you hadn't even READ it.

So -
when you've actually had time to read your own cite site, will you please admit that Tekton did NOT answer the challenge ?

The list of contradictions is NOT the challenge - it's an addendum to the challenge which points out why it can't be done. Piecemeal apologetics separately waving away each contradiction is NOT meeting the challenge.


Kapyong

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

1. show that there have been plausible answers given, and this is one of them, and to...

Not so.
Pardon me PinSeeker, but I don't think you clearly understand WHAT the challenge IS yet.

The challenge is to provide a continuous coherent account of Easter Sunday which combines all six sources without leaving anything out.

The challenge is NOT to just explain away all the listed contradictions with piecemeal apologetic excuses. The listed contradictions are NOT the challenge - they are are just an addendum which helps explain the challenge.

Please confirm that you understand that PinSeeker

Kapyong

[Kapyong]

Gday JehovahsWitness and all

COMBINING THE VARIOUS ACCOUNTS

Well,
thanks for at least trying, but -

Your account does not combine all the details at all - it's just a very brief summary which leaves out all the problems and contradictions.

#The women started out just before dawn (Sunday morning) and got there as the sun was rising (they being all the women although Mary played a leading role)

You've left out where G.John says it was "still dark" and made up your own words.

#They go to the tomb to finish what had been hurredly done before the sabbath

You've left out all mention of what the purpose was, leaving simply "what had been hurriedly done before", while -
omitting G.Matthew saying it was to see the tomb,
omitting G.Luke and G.Mark saying it was to spice the body,
omitting G.John saying the body was already spiced.

#Mary immediately leaves the group running back to tell Peter and John leaving behind the other women. The rest of the women remain at the tomb.

Really ?
Which Gospel say that ?
Are apologists allowed to make up their own version of the story ?

This is riduclous, I'm getting bored.

Kapyong

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 29 by PinSeeker]

I tell you what Pinseeker.

You post an answer to the Barker challenge. Using the Gospels, give us a timeline or account of events.
I will then rebut it.

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Not only does J.P. Holding at Tekton fail to address the challenge by providing a continuous coherent narrative of Easter Sunday, he doesn't even try to answer all the contradictions listed.

Dan Barker listed 17 contradictions,
JPH answered only THREE of them (what time, who went, why),
while ignoring the rest.

JPH also stacked the deck with his caveat 2 -
"1 Cor. 15, despite Barker's challenge, is not to be included, though it could be. 1 Cor. 15 is a creedal statement meant to emphasize that the leading people of the church saw the resurrected Jesus. It is therefore stylized for a purpose and need not be force-fitted into the narrative accounts. "

Got that ?
A 'creedal statement' is what early Christians like Paul believe about the appearances of Jesus Christ to early Christians, but apparently it has been so 'stylized for a purpose' that it cannot be reconciled with the Gospels without force-fitting (i.e. they don't match, they contradict.)

Really ?
What purpose is there to make a belief statement of early Christians contradict the Gospels ?

Why is it OK to apologists for a Creedal Statement of earliest Christian belief to contradict the Gospels' narratives ?

While they also insist that there are no contradictions ?


Kapyong

[Kapyong]

Gday rikuoamero, and all,
Keep up the good work

[Replying to post 29 by PinSeeker]
I tell you what Pinseeker. You post an answer to the Barker challenge. Using the Gospels, give us a timeline or account of events. I will then rebut it.

I quickly got bored with JW's Combined Account, perhaps you'll be more enthused to answer it ?

It's essentially a SEVENTH narrative of Easter Sunday - different from the previous six accounts, which all differ from each other.

Achieved with the usual tricks to cover the contradictions and problems :

• omitting most of the details,
• it says white but means black; 'hate' means 'love less', the sun rises in darkness,
• he said an angel - but there were two, just one not mentioned
• a man, an angel, two men, two angels - all mean the same to an apologist,
• Humpty Dumpty's defence - any word can mean anything when I want it to,
• this happened, that happened, all that too - but were not mentioned,
• quantum tomb door - open AND closed at the same time,
• Shrodinger's Mary - she knows Jesus is resurrected AND she also does NOT know it.
• Jesus Time Traveller - can ascend that very day AND yet also hang around 40 days.
• Jews tell days differently - therefore one-and-a-bit days = three days,
• Blurred reality - the Ascension happened here, and also there, and also over there too.

The Gospel according to Monty Python.

Kapyong

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Another critical contradiction in the Gospels is not well known among Christians, I've found.

While the three synoptic Gospels all have Jesus Christ crucified on the Passover (on a sabbath), the latest Gospel of John has the crucifixion on the day before, the Day of Preparation -

G.John 19:31 "Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away."

G.John represents Jesus Christ like the paschal lamb, which is killed on the day of Preparation (for use next day on the Passover.)

So,
the gospels don't even agree on which day the crucifixion happened.


Kapyong

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 29 by PinSeeker]

I tell you what Pinseeker.

You post an answer to the Barker challenge. Using the Gospels, give us a timeline or account of events.
I will then rebut it.

I already did. Rebut away. Again, it's not mine, as in, it's not an original PinSeeker manifesto. But I generally agree with it. Like I speculated before, there are a few quibbles I have with a few of the things stated therein, but overall, it's pretty good. Read through it and tell me what objections you have.

Hey, I generally agree with what JH has said, too. I may have some minor quibbles with a few things, but it's pretty darn good. Same thing applies there. If you have any objections, then point them out and I'll be happy to address them.

Again, I see no reason to re-create the wheel, as it were, to a bunch of guys who are never going to be satisfied anyway. But yeah, by all means, fellas. Keep up the "good work."

[PinSeeker]

Gday all,

Another critical contradiction in the Gospels is not well known among Christians, I've found.

While the three synoptic Gospels all have Jesus Christ crucified on the Passover (on a sabbath), the latest Gospel of John has the crucifixion on the day before, the Day of Preparation -

G.John 19:31 "Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away."

G.John represents Jesus Christ like the paschal lamb, which is killed on the day of Preparation (for use next day on the Passover.)

So,
the gospels don't even agree on which day the crucifixion happened.


Kapyong

I already addressed the supposed day of Preparation "conflict." As I said in the other thread:

"There is a slight complication that has to be dealt with here by the Jews in burying Jesus. According to the Law, specifically Deuteronomy 21:23, burial of a corpse has to take place on the day of death, which takes priority over Passover. So the Jews had to suspend the beginning of Passover -- therefore it was still technically the Day of Preparation (even though evening had already come) and the day before Passover, at which time all work must have ceased. Again, a simple misunderstanding of how Jewish observance of Passover was mandated."

And again, it's not surprising in the least that John is the one who relates it this way, because he's more concerned in his Gospel with the spiritual significance of the events rather than the events themselves.

Hey, nice hat; it fits. Ohhhhhhhhhh.... I broke the rules again.

Grace and peace to you, Kapyong.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 29 by PinSeeker]

I tell you what Pinseeker.

You post an answer to the Barker challenge. Using the Gospels, give us a timeline or account of events.
I will then rebut it.

I already did. Rebut away. Again, it's not mine, as in, it's not an original PinSeeker manifesto. But I generally agree with it. Like I speculated before, there are a few quibbles I have with a few of the things stated therein, but overall, it's pretty good. Read through it and tell me what objections you have.

Hey, I generally agree with what JH has said, too. I may have some minor quibbles with a few things, but it's pretty darn good. Same thing applies there. If you have any objections, then point them out and I'll be happy to address them.

Again, I see no reason to re-create the wheel, as it were, to a bunch of guys who are never going to be satisfied anyway. But yeah, by all means, fellas. Keep up the "good work."

Humour me. Sometimes reinvention is necessary. Right now, you've given that other website your stamp of approval, but what if, upon writing the account, you notice something you had not noticed before?