A question for christians

[thenormalyears]

You believe in a God that is all knowing, he knows the past, present and the future, correct?

[Metatron]

You see, God will judge fairly, i.e.

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

So are you saying morally upright Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans, etc. still get to pass through the Pearly Gates?

You haven't really addressed your earlier statement that God does not send anyone to Hell and that we send ourselves. I realize that the "sending ourselves" bit is another way of saying not taking Christ up on his offer of salvation, but really if an atheist dies and presumably does not want to go to Hell something is putting him there against his will, whether that something is God directly or his agent Satan. If God wasn't putting him there then he wouldn't be there.

See above. Also, most athiests around have at one time or another been presented with the truth of Christ's salvation. If they reject that, it's on their own heads, and they are doing it to themselves.

You still don't seem to acknowledge that SOMEONE is physically or spiritually putting people in Hell.

Holy Cow! I just realized that I'm apparently imperiling my immortal soul by participating on this website!!!!! Since there appears to be a direct correlation between exposure to Christian doctrine and the odds of being flambeed by demons it would appear that I would be better off if I were a Bushman wandering the Kalahari well away from those soul threatening Christian missionaries. Yikes!

Hmmm.... maybe if I get a lobotomy I can still make it in.

[Easyrider]

You see, God will judge fairly, i.e.

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

So are you saying morally upright Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans, etc. still get to pass through the Pearly Gates?

Morally upright in who's eyes, man's or God's? The Bible says ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All I know is that God is just and he will make a fair determination.

You haven't really addressed your earlier statement that God does not send anyone to Hell and that we send ourselves. I realize that the "sending ourselves" bit is another way of saying not taking Christ up on his offer of salvation, but really if an atheist dies and presumably does not want to go to Hell something is putting him there against his will, whether that something is God directly or his agent Satan. If God wasn't putting him there then he wouldn't be there.

You still don't seem to acknowledge that SOMEONE is physically or spiritually putting people in Hell.

That's like saying that someone is unfair because they are putting criminals in jail, when it's the criminal's own actions which are to blame.

Holy Cow! I just realized that I'm apparently imperiling my immortal soul by participating on this website!!!!!

Now that's your choice, isn't it - to accept or reject Jesus' gift of eternal life and salvation? But you're right - you've placed yourself in a forum where the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his salvation are revealed. So at the Judgment, you cannot claim ignorance. You'll have to come up with something else.

Of course the better plan is to receive Christ as your Lord and Savior for the remission of your sins.

Cheers....

[Believer]

If a man stands before a judge accused of a crime and says, "Your honor, I don't want to go to jail. I thought you were a kind and loving judge. I thought you'd understand that I just didn't know enough about the law to make a good decision on whether or not to follow it."

That man, after being laughed at by the judge, would still end up going to jail, and still end up having to face the punishment. The very thing that everyone is counting on to save them is what's going to be against them, and end up hurting them. If God is just then those who sin against Him, which is everyone ever born, will be found guilty and punished.

So without Jesus, who's actually "putting" the unbeliever in hell? It's the unbeliever, who like everyone on earth has sinned, who deserves hell for his/her crimes. We all do. Everyone on earth has sinned against God. It is because of these crimes against God that we're being punished (sent to hell), not because God is forcing us there, but because of what we've done against God.

The one difference is that through Christ we have an advocate (a really, really great lawyer), which covers our sins before God. So essentially Jesus comes in judgement, and rather than being found guilty, we're found innocent, and set free.

[McCulloch]

So without Jesus, who's actually "putting" the unbeliever in hell? It's the unbeliever, who like everyone on earth has sinned, who deserves hell for his/her crimes. We all do. Everyone on earth has sinned against God. It is because of these crimes against God that we're being punished (sent to hell), not because God is forcing us there, but because of what we've done against God.

But a loving God would not allow eternal torment for those made in his image. At the very least, he would put them out of their misery, once there was no hope for reconciliation. And a just God would not unevenly distribute grace to those who happen to be born into the right families, cities and countries.

The one difference is that through Christ we have an advocate (a really, really great lawyer), which covers our sins before God. So essentially Jesus comes in judgement, and rather than being found guilty, we're found innocent, and set free.

I really do not like that analogy. A good lawyer does not get you forgiven. Nor does a good lawyer agree to take the punishment for you. Christian theology does not paint Jesus as a really great lawyer. He is the ultimate scapegoat, the substitutionary sacrifice. This, however, is a concept quite agreeable to the ancients which to modern morality seems quite unjust.

[Chad]

If a man stands before a judge accused of a crime and says, "Your honor, I don't want to go to jail. I thought you were a kind and loving judge. I thought you'd understand that I just didn't know enough about the law to make a good decision on whether or not to follow it.".

That man, after being laughed at by the judge, would still end up going to jail, and still end up having to face the punishment. The very thing that everyone is counting on to save them is what's going to be against them, and end up hurting them. If God is just then those who sin against Him, which is everyone ever born, will be found guilty and punished.

If every human ever born has sinned, then what about the humans that lived a hundred thousand years ago and up until only a few thousand years ago? They had no idea of Christianity. Will they be found guily and punished? Or is it ok that they probably held other religious ideas and god(s)?

Also, your Judge example is a bit light on how god sentences people. God is sentencing people to not just life in prison, but to eternal damnation. That's right, an eternal torment in hell for finite sins. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, I don't care what they did.

So without Jesus, who's actually "putting" the unbeliever in hell? It's the unbeliever, who like everyone on earth has sinned, who deserves hell for his/her crimes. We all do. Everyone on earth has sinned against God. It is because of these crimes against God that we're being punished (sent to hell), not because God is forcing us there, but because of what we've done against God.

No one deserves to go to hell. The mere fact that God would created a hell is sick. Couldn't god just as easily "fix" that person, by showing them how they went wrong? Unless god isn't omnipotent. Couldn't god just end their life, sending them to neither heaven or hell for what they did? The only justification I see for sending them to hell would be that god is just sadistic and likes to have people suffer.

The one difference is that through Christ we have an advocate (a really, really great lawyer), which covers our sins before God. So essentially Jesus comes in judgement, and rather than being found guilty, we're found innocent, and set free.

So faith in one man who died on a cross saves you from hell and frees you from taking responsibility for your actions? Do you have any evidence that this is true?

[Cephus]

If god knows what I will do then my "choice" is an illusion.

Sorry, that kind of logic escapes me. You still made the choice apart from God. He was just knowledgeable of what choice you made.

That's because you really don't understand logic then. If God knows everything that will happen, perfectly, without the possibility of error, from the beginning of time, then everything that you do is scripted before you are born. You simply cannot choose something that God has not forseen, hence you cannot truly make any choices. You only have the illusion of free will because you don't know what God knows. But you cannot decide to do something other than what God knows you'll do. That's where true free will breaks down.

[Scrotum]

So faith in one man who died on a cross saves you from hell and frees you from taking responsibility for your actions? Do you have any evidence that this is true?

But Chad, this is GOOD. You can go out and rape, kill and torment all you want. What about your best friends daughter? Yeah, she´s nice, Rape her, she´s only 8, but heck, why not? If you accepted Jesus in your Heart. You are forgiven....

Right?

[SimonH]

So faith in one man who died on a cross saves you from hell and frees you from taking responsibility for your actions? Do you have any evidence that this is true?

But Chad, this is GOOD. You can go out and rape, kill and torment all you want. What about your best friends daughter? Yeah, she´s nice, Rape her, she´s only 8, but heck, why not? If you accepted Jesus in your Heart. You are forgiven....

Right?

Presumably, raping someone indicates you have not accepted Jesus in your heart (Of course, you can get some good raping in, then accept Jesus after. Theoretically, Christians chould be on their way to meet Hitler in heaven).

BTW, is rape a sin?

[SimonH]

If god knows what I will do then my "choice" is an illusion.

Sorry, that kind of logic escapes me. You still made the choice apart from God. He was just knowledgeable of what choice you made.

That's because you really don't understand logic then. If God knows everything that will happen, perfectly, without the possibility of error, from the beginning of time, then everything that you do is scripted before you are born. You simply cannot choose something that God has not forseen, hence you cannot truly make any choices. You only have the illusion of free will because you don't know what God knows. But you cannot decide to do something other than what God knows you'll do. That's where true free will breaks down.

Aren't you mixing free will with precognition?

If I see into the future and find out what you're going to write in your next post, does that mean you have no choice over what you write?

Surely it only means that I am privy to the choice you are going to make, before you actually make it.

However, I do think the Christian god has created a script, of sorts, which we are bound to follow, because he has created everything.

I've been asking "what is the difference between the people that choose god and those that don't?"

Is it random, or has god made us slightly different?

If a Christian says we make our choice whether to accept him or not outside of their god, that means their god didn't create everything - because he didn't create the conditions by which we choose him or not.

You can't say "I created you and everything around you, but whether you choose me or not is entirely up to you".

Put simply - the Christian god can't design my brain then blame me for the way it thinks.

[1John2_26]

McCulloch,

Have you ever read Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis?

God is already in the future as He is outside of the "thing."

A good lawyer does not get you forgiven. Nor does a good lawyer agree to take the punishment for you.

You are either innocent or not. A good lawyer proves that.

Christian theology does not paint Jesus as a really great lawyer.

because he is the Judge, not (just) the lawyer in Christian "theology."

He is the ultimate scapegoat, the substitutionary sacrifice.

Like a soldier throwing himself on a hand grenade endangering his friend or, better yet, just another soldier.

This, however, is a concept quite agreeable to the ancients which to modern morality seems quite unjust.

The Israelites are some of those "ancients" are they not? They rejected the slaughtered Messiah "thing."

It is also a concept quite hard for modern man to grasp as well I see.