Is atheism meaningless?

[FWI]

Christopher Hitchens, an atheist (in his book: God is Not Great pg. 50), stated: "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." This seems like a reasonable statement and I agree. So, what is the evidence for atheism having meaning or purpose?

Therefore, if I use Christopher Hitchens' statement as a guide, then at present I must accept that atheism has no significance, unless evidence can be produced to the contrary.

[Artie]

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (2011): Atheism means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God. [Atheism and Agnosticism, Online]

Encyclopedia of Unbelief (2007), p. 88: In its broadest sense atheism, from the Greek a (without) and theos (deity), standardly refers to the denial of the existence of any god or gods.

Encyclopedia of Philosophy 2nd ed. (2006), p.358 [in vol. 1 of 10]: According to the most usual definition, an atheist is a person who maintains that there is no God, that is, that the sentence God exists expresses a false proposition. In contrast, an agnostic maintains that it is not known or cannot be known whether there is a God

Oxford Companion to Philosophy, New Ed. (2005), p. 65: Atheism is ostensibly the doctrine that there is no God. Some atheists support this claim by arguments. But these arguments are usually directed against the Christian concept of God, ... Agnosticism may be strictly personal and confessional"I have no firm belief about God"or it may be the more ambitious claim that no one ought to have a positive belief for or against the divine existence.

Blackwell Dictionary of Western Philosophy (2004), p. 530: The belief that God " especially a personal, omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent God " does not exist.

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (1998), entry by William Rowe: As commonly understood, atheism is the position that affirms the nonexistence of God. So an atheist is someone who disbelieves in God, whereas a theist is someone who believes in God. the common use of atheism to mean disbelief in God is so thoroughly entrenched, we will follow it. We may use the term non-theist to characterize the position of the negative atheist.

Atheist philosopher Kai Neilson says that a more adequate characterization of atheism consists in the more complex claim that to be an atheist is to be someone who rejects belief in God" [Encyclopdia Britannica (2011)]

Neilson dislikes the definition of an atheist as being someone who lacks belief in God, saying, that a "lack of belief" definition is a bad definition for many reasons. It is not commonly used. It is not defined that way in any reputable dictionary. It is too broad because most agnostics and babies don't consider themselves atheists. And it makes no sense for an "-ism" to be a based on a lack of belief."

You can read a lengthy excerpt from his work that elaborates on the topic here:

http://www.exminister.org/Nielsens-defi ... heism.html

As I said, saying atheism is a lack of belief is something for atheists to hide behind to avoid intelligent discussion about atheism itself.

Theism: Belief that god(s) exist.
Weak atheism: Absence of belief that gods exist, absence of belief that gods don't exist.
Strong atheism: Absence of belief that gods exist, presence of belief that gods don't exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

[EPH2:8]

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (2011): Atheism means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God. [Atheism and Agnosticism, Online]

Encyclopedia of Unbelief (2007), p. 88: In its broadest sense atheism, from the Greek a (without) and theos (deity), standardly refers to the denial of the existence of any god or gods.

Encyclopedia of Philosophy 2nd ed. (2006), p.358 [in vol. 1 of 10]: According to the most usual definition, an atheist is a person who maintains that there is no God, that is, that the sentence God exists expresses a false proposition. In contrast, an agnostic maintains that it is not known or cannot be known whether there is a God

Oxford Companion to Philosophy, New Ed. (2005), p. 65: Atheism is ostensibly the doctrine that there is no God. Some atheists support this claim by arguments. But these arguments are usually directed against the Christian concept of God, ... Agnosticism may be strictly personal and confessional"I have no firm belief about God"or it may be the more ambitious claim that no one ought to have a positive belief for or against the divine existence.

Blackwell Dictionary of Western Philosophy (2004), p. 530: The belief that God " especially a personal, omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent God " does not exist.

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (1998), entry by William Rowe: As commonly understood, atheism is the position that affirms the nonexistence of God. So an atheist is someone who disbelieves in God, whereas a theist is someone who believes in God. the common use of atheism to mean disbelief in God is so thoroughly entrenched, we will follow it. We may use the term non-theist to characterize the position of the negative atheist.

Atheist philosopher Kai Neilson says that a more adequate characterization of atheism consists in the more complex claim that to be an atheist is to be someone who rejects belief in God" [Encyclopdia Britannica (2011)]

Neilson dislikes the definition of an atheist as being someone who lacks belief in God, saying, that a "lack of belief" definition is a bad definition for many reasons. It is not commonly used. It is not defined that way in any reputable dictionary. It is too broad because most agnostics and babies don't consider themselves atheists. And it makes no sense for an "-ism" to be a based on a lack of belief."

You can read a lengthy excerpt from his work that elaborates on the topic here:

http://www.exminister.org/Nielsens-defi ... heism.html

As I said, saying atheism is a lack of belief is something for atheists to hide behind to avoid intelligent discussion about atheism itself.

Theism: Belief that god(s) exist.
Weak atheism: Absence of belief that gods exist, absence of belief that gods don't exist.
Strong atheism: Absence of belief that gods exist, presence of belief that gods don't exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Using this definition of atheism (lack of belief), would this not then include rocks, cats, a bowl of ice cream, and a banana as atheists ; as they all lack belief in God / gods as well.

[Artie]

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (2011): Atheism means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God. [Atheism and Agnosticism, Online]

Encyclopedia of Unbelief (2007), p. 88: In its broadest sense atheism, from the Greek a (without) and theos (deity), standardly refers to the denial of the existence of any god or gods.

Encyclopedia of Philosophy 2nd ed. (2006), p.358 [in vol. 1 of 10]: According to the most usual definition, an atheist is a person who maintains that there is no God, that is, that the sentence God exists expresses a false proposition. In contrast, an agnostic maintains that it is not known or cannot be known whether there is a God

Oxford Companion to Philosophy, New Ed. (2005), p. 65: Atheism is ostensibly the doctrine that there is no God. Some atheists support this claim by arguments. But these arguments are usually directed against the Christian concept of God, ... Agnosticism may be strictly personal and confessional"I have no firm belief about God"or it may be the more ambitious claim that no one ought to have a positive belief for or against the divine existence.

Blackwell Dictionary of Western Philosophy (2004), p. 530: The belief that God " especially a personal, omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent God " does not exist.

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (1998), entry by William Rowe: As commonly understood, atheism is the position that affirms the nonexistence of God. So an atheist is someone who disbelieves in God, whereas a theist is someone who believes in God. the common use of atheism to mean disbelief in God is so thoroughly entrenched, we will follow it. We may use the term non-theist to characterize the position of the negative atheist.

Atheist philosopher Kai Neilson says that a more adequate characterization of atheism consists in the more complex claim that to be an atheist is to be someone who rejects belief in God" [Encyclopdia Britannica (2011)]

Neilson dislikes the definition of an atheist as being someone who lacks belief in God, saying, that a "lack of belief" definition is a bad definition for many reasons. It is not commonly used. It is not defined that way in any reputable dictionary. It is too broad because most agnostics and babies don't consider themselves atheists. And it makes no sense for an "-ism" to be a based on a lack of belief."

You can read a lengthy excerpt from his work that elaborates on the topic here:

http://www.exminister.org/Nielsens-defi ... heism.html

As I said, saying atheism is a lack of belief is something for atheists to hide behind to avoid intelligent discussion about atheism itself.

Theism: Belief that god(s) exist.
Weak atheism: Absence of belief that gods exist, absence of belief that gods don't exist.
Strong atheism: Absence of belief that gods exist, presence of belief that gods don't exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Using this definition of atheism (lack of belief), would this not then include rocks, cats, a bowl of ice cream, and a banana as atheists ; as they all lack belief in God / gods as well.

Hardly, since a theist is someone who believes in the existence of god or gods. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... ish/theist Not a theist doesn't mean "not a someone" it means someone who is not a believer.

[Overcomer]

Artie quoted what I wrote here:

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (2011): Atheism means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God. [Atheism and Agnosticism, Online]

Encyclopedia of Unbelief (2007), p. 88: In its broadest sense atheism, from the Greek a (without) and theos (deity), standardly refers to the denial of the existence of any god or gods.

Encyclopedia of Philosophy 2nd ed. (2006), p.358 [in vol. 1 of 10]: According to the most usual definition, an atheist is a person who maintains that there is no God, that is, that the sentence God exists expresses a false proposition. In contrast, an agnostic maintains that it is not known or cannot be known whether there is a God

Oxford Companion to Philosophy, New Ed. (2005), p. 65: Atheism is ostensibly the doctrine that there is no God. Some atheists support this claim by arguments. But these arguments are usually directed against the Christian concept of God, ... Agnosticism may be strictly personal and confessional"I have no firm belief about God"or it may be the more ambitious claim that no one ought to have a positive belief for or against the divine existence.

Blackwell Dictionary of Western Philosophy (2004), p. 530: The belief that God " especially a personal, omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent God " does not exist.

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (1998), entry by William Rowe: As commonly understood, atheism is the position that affirms the nonexistence of God. So an atheist is someone who disbelieves in God, whereas a theist is someone who believes in God. the common use of atheism to mean disbelief in God is so thoroughly entrenched, we will follow it. We may use the term non-theist to characterize the position of the negative atheist.

Atheist philosopher Kai Neilson says that a more adequate characterization of atheism consists in the more complex claim that to be an atheist is to be someone who rejects belief in God" [Encyclopdia Britannica (2011)]

Neilson dislikes the definition of an atheist as being someone who lacks belief in God, saying, that a "lack of belief" definition is a bad definition for many reasons. It is not commonly used. It is not defined that way in any reputable dictionary. It is too broad because most agnostics and babies don't consider themselves atheists. And it makes no sense for an "-ism" to be a based on a lack of belief."

You can read a lengthy excerpt from his work that elaborates on the topic here:

http://www.exminister.org/Nielsens-defi ... heism.html

As I said, saying atheism is a lack of belief is something for atheists to hide behind to avoid intelligent discussion about atheism itself.

Artie responded to what I wrote:

Theism: Belief that god(s) exist.
Weak atheism: Absence of belief that gods exist, absence of belief that gods don't exist.
Strong atheism: Absence of belief that gods exist, presence of belief that gods don't exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

I think it's always important to look at the source of information. Do you honestly think that Wikipedia is on par with all those academic sources that I listed? Would you honestly believe it over atheist philosopher Kai Neilson who debunks the definition of atheist as someone who merely lacks belief in God?

And you omitted what I wrote in that same post about the fact that having a lack of belief is having no belief, but it's obvious that the atheists here have many beliefs about God as they share them all the time and expend a lot of energy trying to disprove God's existence, often using materialism to do it.

And yet, if atheism was simply a lack of belief in God, the atheist who describes himself that way would only be making a comment about his state of mind which means he really has no right to attack theism since it's only a matter of opinion -- which brings us right back to the OP. How meaningful could atheism be if it simply describes a person's state of mind but isn't based in anything concrete? And if the atheist thinks it IS based on something concrete, then he needs to defend it as such, not merely dismiss it as a "lack of belief" in God.

[EPH2:8]

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (2011): Atheism means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God. [Atheism and Agnosticism, Online]

Encyclopedia of Unbelief (2007), p. 88: In its broadest sense atheism, from the Greek a (without) and theos (deity), standardly refers to the denial of the existence of any god or gods.

Encyclopedia of Philosophy 2nd ed. (2006), p.358 [in vol. 1 of 10]: According to the most usual definition, an atheist is a person who maintains that there is no God, that is, that the sentence God exists expresses a false proposition. In contrast, an agnostic maintains that it is not known or cannot be known whether there is a God

Oxford Companion to Philosophy, New Ed. (2005), p. 65: Atheism is ostensibly the doctrine that there is no God. Some atheists support this claim by arguments. But these arguments are usually directed against the Christian concept of God, ... Agnosticism may be strictly personal and confessional"I have no firm belief about God"or it may be the more ambitious claim that no one ought to have a positive belief for or against the divine existence.

Blackwell Dictionary of Western Philosophy (2004), p. 530: The belief that God " especially a personal, omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent God " does not exist.

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (1998), entry by William Rowe: As commonly understood, atheism is the position that affirms the nonexistence of God. So an atheist is someone who disbelieves in God, whereas a theist is someone who believes in God. the common use of atheism to mean disbelief in God is so thoroughly entrenched, we will follow it. We may use the term non-theist to characterize the position of the negative atheist.

Atheist philosopher Kai Neilson says that a more adequate characterization of atheism consists in the more complex claim that to be an atheist is to be someone who rejects belief in God" [Encyclopdia Britannica (2011)]

Neilson dislikes the definition of an atheist as being someone who lacks belief in God, saying, that a "lack of belief" definition is a bad definition for many reasons. It is not commonly used. It is not defined that way in any reputable dictionary. It is too broad because most agnostics and babies don't consider themselves atheists. And it makes no sense for an "-ism" to be a based on a lack of belief."

You can read a lengthy excerpt from his work that elaborates on the topic here:

http://www.exminister.org/Nielsens-defi ... heism.html

As I said, saying atheism is a lack of belief is something for atheists to hide behind to avoid intelligent discussion about atheism itself.

Theism: Belief that god(s) exist.
Weak atheism: Absence of belief that gods exist, absence of belief that gods don't exist.
Strong atheism: Absence of belief that gods exist, presence of belief that gods don't exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Using this definition of atheism (lack of belief), would this not then include rocks, cats, a bowl of ice cream, and a banana as atheists ; as they all lack belief in God / gods as well.

Hardly, since a theist is someone who believes in the existence of god or gods. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... ish/theist Not a theist doesn't mean "not a someone" it means someone who is not a believer.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be saying that atheism is a lack of belief in God / gods by a creature with the ability to form beliefs?

[brunumb]

For any number of reasons, a theist has a belief that there is a God or that there are gods. I don't give any credibility to those reasons and consequently do not have that belief. There is no need for any more than that lack of belief to be an atheist. I think the real issue is that theists have consistently failed to meet the burden of proof for their claim that gods exist and desperately want to shift it by whatever means possible.

[EPH2:8]

For any number of reasons, a theist has a belief that there is a God or that there are gods. I don't give any credibility to those reasons and consequently do not have that belief. There is no need for any more than that lack of belief to be an atheist. I think the real issue is that theists have consistently failed to meet the burden of proof for their claim that gods exist and desperately want to shift it by whatever means possible.

Again, using this definition please explain why a rock would not be considered an atheist as a rock lacks belief in God; it does not hold a belief either way.

[StuartJ]

People of faith - in my experience - often CHOOSE the meaning of "scriptures" to suit their purposes.

People of faith - in my experience - often CHOOSE the meaning of "God" to suit their purposes.

People of faith - in my experience - often CHOOSE the meaning of "Atheism" to suit their purposes.

Please read and understand what is written below - especially the suggested "tainting" of dictionaries.

I note that persons of faith here have chosen to reference only what suits their purposes.


Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2][3][4] Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist.[5][6] In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[1][2][7][8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Older dictionaries define atheism as a belief that there is no God. Clearly, theistic influence taints these definitions. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as there is no God betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read there are no gods. https://www.atheists.org/activism/resou ... t-atheism/

[EPH2:8]

People of faith - in my experience - often CHOOSE the meaning of "scriptures" to suit their purposes.

People of faith - in my experience - often CHOOSE the meaning of "God" to suit their purposes.

People of faith - in my experience - often CHOOSE the meaning of "Atheism" to suit their purposes.

Please read and understand what is written below - especially the suggested "tainting" of dictionaries.

I note that persons of faith here have chosen to reference only what suits their purposes.


Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2][3][4] Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist.[5][6] In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[1][2][7][8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Older dictionaries define atheism as a belief that there is no God. Clearly, theistic influence taints these definitions. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as there is no God betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read there are no gods. https://www.atheists.org/activism/resou ... t-atheism/

On page two I am told this by another atheist:

Dictionary.com defines "atheist" this way: "A person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings." [Emphasis added.]

Dictionary.com defines "disbelieves" this way: "To have no belief in."

Thus, according to this dictionary (and many others) a person who has no belief in gods is an atheist. You don't have to believe that gods do not exist; you only have to not believe that they do exist.


How do you reconcile this with your definition from the American Atheists website that states atheism is not a disbelief? And again, if atheism is merely a lack of belief, please explain how a rock is not considered an atheist.

[StuartJ]

It's VERY telling to note the great flurry of activity on this topic ...

And the VERY limited activity here, for example:

Evidence that the biblical Yahweh is "God"

viewtopic.php?t=35003

Or here:

Evidence the biblical writings are from Yahweh

viewtopic.php?t=35004

People of faith - in my experience - are MOST reluctant to discuss the very foundation of their faith.

They do - in my view - bury themselves amongst the leaves and delude themselves that the whole Magic Forest of "God" is really there.

But NEVER do they demonstrate that the biblical "God" is anything other than imaginary ...

Or that so much as a verse of their "scripture" came from anywhere other than the minds of Jewish humans.

But are quite happy to take the spotlight off their own state of the mind ...

And shine it on science or Stalin, or atheism