Since atheist believe that "nature found a way" (to put it in Jurassic Park terms) to produce life against all odds. Belief that nature created life is pantheism. So, doesn't that make all atheist pantheist?
Atheism is pantheism
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Re: Atheism is pantheism
Post #31[Replying to Tcg]
But is not nature and the wonder of the universe awe inspiring inspirational and holy ?
But is not nature and the wonder of the universe awe inspiring inspirational and holy ?
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Re: Atheism is pantheism
Post #32.
SOME Atheists may "believe that ‘nature found a way’" – SOME have no opinion on the matter.
Some Theists have strange notions about those who do not believe as they do.
Note: verifiable evidence is NOT ‘Take my word for it (or his or this book)' – NOR is ‘go find it for yourself (by praying, reading pious propaganda, or whatever)' verifiable evidence.
Correction: Atheism means ‘without belief in gods’.EarthScienceguy wrote: Since atheist believe that "nature found a way" (to put it in Jurassic Park terms) to produce life against all odds.
SOME Atheists may "believe that ‘nature found a way’" – SOME have no opinion on the matter.
Some Theists have strange notions about those who do not believe as they do.
ANY of the thousands of ‘gods’ proposed, worshiped, loved, feared, and fought over by humans MAY exist – awaiting verifiable evidence which, if any, are more than figments of human imagination.EarthScienceguy wrote: Belief that nature created life is pantheism. So, doesn't that make all atheist pantheist?
Note: verifiable evidence is NOT ‘Take my word for it (or his or this book)' – NOR is ‘go find it for yourself (by praying, reading pious propaganda, or whatever)' verifiable evidence.
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Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Re: Atheism is pantheism
Post #33That overstates the case. Some gods just aren't possible.Zzyzx wrote: ANY of the thousands of ‘gods’ proposed, worshiped, loved, feared, and fought over by humans MAY exist ...
You cannot, for instance, have an omnipotent god who can't defeat iron chariots. You can't have a loving god who tortures people forever. You can't have an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god who coexists with evil.
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Re: Atheism is pantheism
Post #34What are you calling a miracle?EarthScienceguy wrote: Belief in miracles is a must for atheist see above.

You could claim that the fact that anything exists at all appears to be a miracle to our limited human thinking. But that doesn't require a belief in any gods.
In fact, believing in a god doesn't help one iota. All a theists is doing is saying, "Hey I don't understand how anything can exist, so I'll pretend that a God exists that I also don't understand who brought everything into being."
They haven't gained anything by taking that approach.
Their fatal error is in making the assumption that an imagined God could be explained.
But there's a paradox even with that. If there exists a God that has always existed then there is no way that the God itself could know how it came to be. How could it know how it came to be if there was never a time when it didn't exist?
You just aren't solving anything by proposing the existence of a supposedly miraculous God. All you are doing is saying the following:
I don't understand how the universe can exist, so I have chose to believe in a creator God that I also don't understand how it exists.
So all you've done is trade off one unknown for an even murkier unknown.
No solutions or explanations have been achieved.
If you are so prepared to accept that a God can exist without explanation, then why reject the notion that a universe could exist without explanation?
You're just chasing an infinite tail in circles. All in the hope of finding an explanation that is clearly illusive.
Until you can explain how a magical God can exist you haven't solved anything.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]

Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
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Re: Atheism is pantheism
Post #35.
There is NO assurance that those who claim to know about 'gods' ACTUALLY know anything at all about the 'gods' of their stories / fantasies / folklore / etc. Telling each other stories and testimonials does not constitute knowledge or verifiable information.
Any of the 'gods' may be possible. What could be impossible are claims made by those who profess to know the characteristics and attributes of proposed gods -- particularly when they are mutually exclusive (being related such that each excludes or precludes the other).
There is NO assurance that those who claim to know about 'gods' ACTUALLY know anything at all about the 'gods' of their stories / fantasies / folklore / etc. Telling each other stories and testimonials does not constitute knowledge or verifiable information.
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Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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Re: Atheism is pantheism
Post #36.
OR an event which someone wishes to credit to their favorite supernatural belief or entity.
A 'miracle' is typically declared for an uncommon event whose cause is not known to the claimant.Divine Insight wrote: What are you calling a miracle?
OR an event which someone wishes to credit to their favorite supernatural belief or entity.
.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Re: Atheism is pantheism
Post #37Not the impossible ones. Not the married bachelor gods. Not the square circle gods. And not the merciful gods who are perfectly just.
But when they do invent gods who are logical contradictions, we know that those gods don't exist.What could be impossible are claims made by those who profess to know the characteristics and attributes of proposed gods -- particularly when they are mutually exclusive (being related such that each excludes or precludes the other).
There is NO assurance that those who claim to know about 'gods' ACTUALLY know anything at all about the 'gods' of their stories / fantasies / folklore / etc. Telling each other stories and testimonials does not constitute knowledge or verifiable information.
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Re: Atheism is pantheism
Post #38wiploc wrote:
Not the impossible ones. Not the married bachelor gods. Not the square circle gods. And not the merciful gods who are perfectly just.
Indeed. These gods are as rare as the gods atheists believe in, pantheistic or otherwise.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
Re: Atheism is pantheism
Post #39[Replying to post 31 by dio9]
The fact that life sprang up on one of these bundle of rocks, over a considerable length of time, has led wannabe theists to proclaim: "That creation is holy" and started rituals to celebrate same. I guess that's holy to those needing a simple explanation.
What is "holy" about zillions of rocks bouncing against each other in our universe? The fact that many if not most have accreted together to form suns, planets and moons are the resultants of the laws of nature -- no holiness there.But is not nature and the wonder of the universe awe inspiring inspirational and holy ?
The fact that life sprang up on one of these bundle of rocks, over a considerable length of time, has led wannabe theists to proclaim: "That creation is holy" and started rituals to celebrate same. I guess that's holy to those needing a simple explanation.
What good is truth if its value is not more than unproven, handed-down faith?
One believes things because one is conditioned to believe them. -Aldous Huxley
Fear within the Religious will always be with them ... as long as they are fearful of death.
One believes things because one is conditioned to believe them. -Aldous Huxley
Fear within the Religious will always be with them ... as long as they are fearful of death.
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Re: Atheism is pantheism
Post #40[Replying to post 34 by Divine Insight]
The laws of physics tells us that there has to be something that has always existed.
But even that thought is bound to the laws of this universe which do not have to apply outside of our universe.
Time is property of this universe. Entropy is a property of this universe.
You say that it is possible that there was a time that God could not have know that He did not exist That is a time bound statement. There was no time before the universe was created.
Even if there was time physics tells us that in an adiabatic system entropy can remain constant. That means that if God is unchanging and all powerful his entropy would not change. For this to happen He would have to exist at every point in the universe and at every moment in time at the same time.
Your view of God is WAY to small.
The laws of physics tells us that there has to be something that has always existed.
But even that thought is bound to the laws of this universe which do not have to apply outside of our universe.
Time is property of this universe. Entropy is a property of this universe.
You say that it is possible that there was a time that God could not have know that He did not exist That is a time bound statement. There was no time before the universe was created.
Even if there was time physics tells us that in an adiabatic system entropy can remain constant. That means that if God is unchanging and all powerful his entropy would not change. For this to happen He would have to exist at every point in the universe and at every moment in time at the same time.
Your view of God is WAY to small.