God creates only atheists.

[Jagella]

If the Christian god exists, then he has created us all (with some help from men and women having sex and women bearing children). Oddly, though, this god does not create us as Christians but as atheists. Creating us this way requires babies to be taught Christianity by their parents and elders which involves risk that babies may be taught the "wrong kind of Christianity," they won't be taught Christianity at all, they may be taught a "false" religion, or worst of all--they may taught that Christianity like all religions is a con game.

These facts beg the...

Question for Debate: Why does God create us as atheists?

I think it's safe to say that God could create us all as Christians, and it seems strange to me that he would not create us as Christians. Since we are born as atheists, it appears to cast doubt on the existence of any gods. Belief in gods then is not innate but was invented by people who wish to control other people.

For further reading see Ryan T. Cragun's What You Don't Know About Religion (but Should), Pages 27-31.

[SkyChief]

God creates us atheist, but vows to punish 3rd and 4th generation children of non-believers: [Exodus 20:5]

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.

Scary stuff.

[William]

SkyChief: God creates us atheist, but vows to punish 3rd and 4th generation children of non-believers:

William: Non believers are not "born atheists" either.
It might help if you cite God about that claim, so the reader might see it as verified claim

"The Lord, your jealous God":You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.


SkyChief: Scary stuff.

William: Not to me.

It didn't appear to be scary stuff to those who disregarded it either.

The study of human behavior tends to verify that this is the algorithm which most humans follow. If your dad consistently beat your mom, or your mom consistently derided your dad, the probability that they learned that behavior from their own parents is high, and it takes a few generations for humans to understand how behavior works that way, before they can develop knowledge enough to then try different approaches.
If God didn't really say that, then whoever wrote it, would have most likely learned it from their own parents, who perhaps learned it through observing the nature of human behavior and consequence. in their own tribe.

[Purple Knight]

William: Non believers are not "born atheists" either.

This is a fascinating claim. I admit it would be easier if SkyChief had said babies were born agnostic.

At what point would you say a baby starts to believe, or at least see the possibility of God, if not told so? Sufficient brain development to understand the concept, birth, conception... or perhaps... before that?

"The Lord, your jealous God":You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.

Here's a question for you about that bit you wrote about necessary generations to change behavior.

If I hate God and I have a child I never see, does it still get punished even if the mother loves God?

If the child escapes this punishment, I should probably abandon the child and mother. If they do not escape punishment this way, it would indicate that it is indeed a directed punishment, rather than a natural consequence of a person's actions and behaviour.

I quite understand that there would be other consequences for the child, but when you tell me my children are going to be punished for the thoughts in my head, hate may well be induced in a proclivitied individual by that very statement.

The generational "punishment" being more a statement about the consequences of my actions and less a directed punishment (which may or may not be true about all Biblical punishments in a universe-is-constructed-so sort of way) but if so, it assumes I cannot have a hatred and keep it to myself. I believe (opinion) that the capacity not to act on every impulse is what makes us sentient creatures in the first place.

[Zzyzx]

.
Many seem convinced that babies are born believing in 'god' or 'gods' -- always 'gods' popular in their culture and/or family. Strange how that happens. Must be magic.

When one already believes in magic / supernaturalism, it is no problem to add another magical belief to the list.

[Diagoras]

I think there is no evidence for that people are born/created atheists. After all, I think I have always believed in God.

Are your parents religious? Did they take you to church and Sunday school?

It would be unusual for someone to have any memories of before they were about three years old. Thats because infants have not yet developed the sophisticated neural connections and pathways required to form and retain the more complex forms of memory.

However, atheism is not opposite of Christianity. Atheism means nowadays lack of belief in any god.

Im very happy to read this part of your post, as I wholly agree with it. Thank you.

It could be possible in principle to be born with belief in god, without being Christian or atheist.

Like, being born a muslim for example? This idea seems to be an example of the point that Zzyzx is challenging: why should the belief one is supposedly born with be so strongly correlated with where one lives?

[1213]

...Why does God create us as atheists?....

Sorry, I dont believe God creates us as atheists, nor even that we are born as atheists.

[Zzyzx]

.

...Why does God create us as atheists?....

Sorry, I dont believe God creates us as atheists, nor even that we are born as atheists.

What you 'believe' is of no consequence in debate. What can you show to be true (with evidence that can be checked for validity / accuracy)?

[1213]

.

...Why does God create us as atheists?....

Sorry, I dont believe God creates us as atheists, nor even that we are born as atheists.

What you 'believe' is of no consequence in debate. What can you show to be true (with evidence that can be checked for validity / accuracy)?

Shouldnt that apply also to Jagellas and your claims?

[Tcg]

.

...Why does God create us as atheists?....

Sorry, I dont believe God creates us as atheists, nor even that we are born as atheists.

What you 'believe' is of no consequence in debate. What can you show to be true (with evidence that can be checked for validity / accuracy)?

Shouldnt that apply also to Jagellas and your claims?

Let's assume that it does. How does that change the fact Zzyzx has pointed out? The statement, "What you 'believe' is of no consequence in debate." is true no matter how many posters it may apply to.


Tcg

[William]

[Replying to post 33]

William: Non believers are not "born atheists" either.

Purple Knight: This is a fascinating claim. I admit it would be easier if SkyChief had said babies were born agnostic.

William: It would be great all 'round if atheists would simple drop the "everyone is born an atheist" fallacy.

Purple Knight: At what point would you say a baby starts to believe, or at least see the possibility of God, if not told so? Sufficient brain development to understand the concept, birth, conception... or perhaps... before that?

William: It is really something which most oft can be observed to be ongoing.
Who has isolated babies sufficiently to observe how they might choose?
Would the results even be natural, if isolation is not?

Purple Knight: Here's a question for you about that bit you wrote about necessary generations to change behavior.

William: Is this 'the bit' I wrote that you are referring to?

• The study of human behavior tends to verify that this is the algorithm which most humans follow. If your dad consistently beat your mom, or your mom consistently derided your dad, the probability that they learned that behavior from their own parents is high, and it takes a few generations for humans to understand how behavior works that way, before they can develop knowledge enough to then try different approaches.
  If God didn't really say that, then whoever wrote it, would have most likely learned it from their own parents, who perhaps learned it through observing the nature of human behavior and consequence. in their own tribe.

If so, then I am not speaking about any punishment from a God. I am speaking about how actions are passed down onto the upcoming generations, and these have their consequence.
I also respect that there is a clause of sorts which allows for individuals to break the patterns although it is more an actual transition than a break...it varies...

People may see that as a punishment from a Creator, since a Creator would have programmed the algorithms, but as I wrote - the algorithms appear to also contain sub-algorithms which permit change to occur, and we Humans have something to do with enabling that process, directly through our choices.