Describing the Christian God

[Jagella]

Question for Debate: How would you describe the Christian god?

The Christian god is an immaterial, timeless, space-less mind which is to say he's made of nothing and exists for no time in no particular place yet exists everywhere for all eternity. Although he's not made of matter he can interact with matter pushing things around and starting fires and floods and plagues and killing lots of people.

One "day" this being decided to create the world we live in by saying so. It should come as no surprise that he thought the results were "good." However, at least two problems existed in this good world. For one thing, God created a really bright angel named Lucifer who got too big for his britches thinking he could be like god. God, not being a proponent of free thought, became angry with Lucifer and cast him and one-third of Lucifer's allied angels out of heaven and down to the earth to cause a lot of trouble there.

Lucifer started the second trouble with the world by disguising himself as a snake and convincing the first woman Eve and her husband Adam to eat some fruit God told them to not to eat. It didn't take long for God to notice the deed, and he soon convened a meeting with Eve, Adam, and the snake. He kicked Eve and Adam out of paradise and made the snake eat dirt.

All was not lost by any means because God promised to send a redeemer to reverse the curse he laid on Eve and Adam and all of their descendants (that's us)--it would just take a while for the redeemer to arrive to save the world--four thousand years to get here!

In the meantime God was very busy with his world that wasn't so good anymore. He made major contributions to this lack of goodness with a world-wide flood and lots of wars he instigated. During this time he chose a people to be holy for him telling them what to do and punishing them if they disobeyed. These people became known as "Jews."

Finally God decided to send the redeemer he promised by getting a Jewish woman pregnant with himself. Evidently seeing sex as beneath him, he never used a penis to get her pregnant but maintained her virginity until she gave birth or even had her remain a virgin perpetually depending on whom you ask.

God named his human self "Jesus" and even started telling people he was made up of three "persons" in one god not bothering to explain the apparent change.

Anyway, God as infant grew up to be God as man and started a ministry. He recruited followers, started showing people his magic, told people they must believe everything he said, and started a fight with the Jewish leaders.

This fight with the Jewish leaders would apparently lead to his undoing in that those Jewish leaders had him executed by the Romans. But you can't keep a good God down, and Jesus as God came back to life. He visited some of his followers, ate some fish, magically walked through a wall, and then floated back up into the sky promising that despite his going away he would still be here.

So ever since then God has his followers eagerly expecting his return to get the job done destroying civilization and casting billions of people into a lake of fire. Until then he has his followers meeting once or twice a week to hear his story, sing off-key hymns, and eat hotdogs at picnics.

Now if anybody is experiencing difficulties believing all of this, they need to get over their doubt. God really hates skepticism and will send you to that lake of fire if you think there isn't one.

[1213]

...THIS is misogyny.

Sorry, I think those are not necessary hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls. The Eve case could be hatred for Eve, but I think not for all women and the reason for it is not that she is a woman.

[1213]

But notice that what got God really upset was Satan just thinking about being like God.

Bible doesnt say that is the reason. It tells the reason was unrighteousness.

If I was cursed with second-class citizenship because I had the wrong genitals, then I'd feel I was being prejudged and treated with contempt. Wouldn't you?

I dont see any reason to think God curses someone because of wrong genitals.

Also, I think there is no prejudice. I think Bible gives positions by person abilities. If I just would not be best for some job, I would accept it. Or what do you think, should I be offended, if people dont make me president of USA, because I am not good enough for the job?

[For_The_Kingdom]

Question for Debate: How would you describe the Christian god?

The Christian god is an immaterial, timeless, space-less mind which is to say he's made of nothing and exists for no time in no particular place yet exists everywhere for all eternity. Although he's not made of matter he can interact with matter pushing things around and starting fires and floods and plagues and killing lots of people.

Yup. Such a concept defies everything that we know about nature (nature law), doesn't it? Well, it would all make sense once you realize that the origin of space, time, energy, and matter could not itself be bound or limited by space, time, energy, and matter.

It should all begin to "flow together" for you at that point. But somehow, someway, I predict that it doesn't.

One "day" this being decided to create the world we live in by saying so.

Nope. Not one "day". God had an eternal will to create the world we live in.

It should come as no surprise that he thought the results were "good." However, at least two problems existed in this good world. For one thing, God created a really bright angel named Lucifer who got too big for his britches thinking he could be like god. God, not being a proponent of free thought, became angry with Lucifer and cast him and one-third of Lucifer's allied angels out of heaven and down to the earth to cause a lot of trouble there.

Newsflash; arrogant, evil people does exist in this world, correct? Would you not agree with that?

Well, the Bible agrees with that as well...and it just so happens that in this particular case, there was an arrogant, evil guy...named Lucifer.

I don't see how this is an issue.

Lucifer started the second trouble with the world by disguising himself as a snake and convincing the first woman Eve and her husband Adam to eat some fruit God told them to not to eat.

Yeah, I remember as a kid when my cousin convinced me to steal something from a store, something that my parents recommended against.

In this world that we live in, people convince people to do bad things, don't they?

I don't see how this is an issue worthy of mention.

It didn't take long for God to notice the deed, and he soon convened a meeting with Eve, Adam, and the snake. He kicked Eve and Adam out of paradise and made the snake eat dirt.

Yeah, when your parents find out that you did something evil, they put you on punishment.

Hmm. This happens in the world we live in all the time, right?

I don't see how this is an issue.

All was not lost by any means because God promised to send a redeemer to reverse the curse he laid on Eve and Adam and all of their descendants (that's us)--it would just take a while for the redeemer to arrive to save the world--four thousand years to get here!

What is four thousand years to a being who has unlimited time and resources at his disposal?

"Anywhere is walking distance, if you have enough time to get there."

In the meantime God was very busy with his world that wasn't so good anymore. He made major contributions to this lack of goodness with a world-wide flood and lots of wars he instigated.

God is The Equalizer (with Denzel Washington; my favorite movie along with John Wick). Have you seen the movie?

The Equalizer is a man of justice...he shuns evil, and he punishes those who practices evil.

But before he punishes those who practice evil, he gives them a chance to make the right decision. He gives them a chance to undo the evil that they've done.

They make their decision (the wrong decision), and the Equalizer acts accordingly.

God is the same way.

During this time he chose a people to be holy for him telling them what to do and punishing them if they disobeyed. These people became known as "Jews."

Yeah, the idea was; do good, and I will bless you. Do bad, and I will discipline you.

I don't see how this is an issue.

Finally God decided to send the redeemer he promised by getting a Jewish woman pregnant with himself. Evidently seeing sex as beneath him, he never used a penis to get her pregnant but maintained her virginity until she gave birth or even had her remain a virgin perpetually depending on whom you ask.

Um, it wasn't himself, it was Jesus...and it was the way that he choose, based on the reasons that he had.

I don't see how this is an issue.

God named his human self "Jesus" and even started telling people he was made up of three "persons" in one god not bothering to explain the apparent change.

That modalistic view of the Trinity is unBiblical, first of all.

Second, I seriously doubt that if the Trinity doctrine was explained with more clarity to you (and others), that this explanation would have allowed you to become a professed believer.

So, based on that, it is irrelevant (or at least, it should be) to you as to how much clarity is needed for ANY given Biblical doctrine, much less the Trinity.

Anyway, God as infant grew up to be God as man and started a ministry. He recruited followers, started showing people his magic

Well, at least according to the story, people saw his magic. That is contrary to the story of abiogenesis and macroevolution, where no one ever saw this magic...yet, that doesn't stop hard core guys in their white labs coats and their constituents from believing it, though.

, told people they must believe everything he said

He told people to believe the truth...which I think is a good thing? Don't you? Going around telling people to believe the truth as opposed to lies..hmm.

I don't see the issue here.

, and started a fight with the Jewish leaders.

From what I read, they started fights with him. He was just going around preaching the truth, that's all.

This fight with the Jewish leaders would apparently lead to his undoing in that those Jewish leaders had him executed by the Romans. But you can't keep a good God down, and Jesus as God came back to life.

Hmm. From what I read, Jesus was God before he died and resurrected.

He visited some of his followers, ate some fish, magically walked through a wall, and then floated back up into the sky promising that despite his going away he would still be here.

Yeah, because if I am going to prove that I am both God-Man, I will eat fish (something that man does), and walk through walls and on water, something that only God can do.

I see no issues here.

So ever since then God has his followers eagerly expecting his return to get the job done destroying civilization and casting billions of people into a lake of fire.

I choose not to be one of those billions of people who are casted into the lake of fire. What about you?

Until then he has his followers meeting once or twice a week to hear his story

No, he doesn't "have" his followers meet up once or twice a week. Going to church is voluntary, not commanded.

, sing off-key hymns

If my children love me so much that they decide to sing to me every night, I will take that as a compliment...off-key or not.

, and eat hotdogs at picnics.

Getting together with loved ones of whom you share a common interest with...I see no issues with that.

Now if anybody is experiencing difficulties believing all of this, they need to get over their doubt. God really hates skepticism and will send you to that lake of fire if you think there isn't one.

Or, you can believe that life came from nonliving material and began to talk and have sex after floating in the cosmos for hundreds of millions of years.

Hey..there is always that.

[Zzyzx]

.

Newsflash; arrogant, evil people does exist in this world, correct? Would you not agree with that?

Of course, arrogant and evil people do exist in various nations, societies, cultures, religions. So what?

Can someone supply a simplistic explanation for the existence of such attitudes and actions?

Lucifer started the second trouble with the world by disguising himself as a snake and convincing the first woman Eve and her husband Adam to eat some fruit God told them to not to eat.

Is Lucifer a real entity / being? Does it actually influence humans? How can either be determined (without taking someones word for it)?

Yeah, when your parents find out that you did something evil, they put you on punishment.

Hmm. This happens in the world we live in all the time, right?

Of course, parents punish all descendants of their evil doing child " or in some cases only a few generations of descendants. Standard practice. Right?

God is The Equalizer (with Denzel Washington; my favorite movie along with John Wick). Have you seen the movie?

The Equalizer is a man of justice...he shuns evil, and he punishes those who practices evil.

But before he punishes those who practice evil, he gives them a chance to make the right decision. He gives them a chance to undo the evil that they've done.

They make their decision (the wrong decision), and the Equalizer acts accordingly.

God is the same way.

Although I have zero interest in movies, I have no objection if people equate one fictional character with another fictional character.

Second, I seriously doubt that if the Trinity doctrine was explained with more clarity to you (and others), that this explanation would have allowed you to become a professed believer.

Feel free to start a thread to explain clearly the Trinity Doctrine. Theologians and scholars should be at your doorstep to learn what they have not been able for centuries to understand, explain and support with verifiable evidence.

Well, at least according to the story, people saw his magic.

People can see magic any day in Las Vegas. Does that indicate the people involved are divine or superhuman?

That is contrary to the story of abiogenesis and macroevolution, where no one ever saw this magic...yet, that doesn't stop hard core guys in their white labs coats and their constituents from believing it, though.

Have the hard core guys in white lab coats claimed those were magic? Have they proclaimed themselves gods?

[Jagella]

The Christian god is an immaterial, timeless, space-less mind which is to say he's made of nothing and exists for no time in no particular place yet exists everywhere for all eternity. Although he's not made of matter he can interact with matter pushing things around and starting fires and floods and plagues and killing lots of people.

Yup. Such a concept defies everything that we know about nature (nature law), doesn't it?

As far as I can tell, the Christian god is very similar to a nothing. After all, no thing is spaceless, timeless, and exists everywhere.

Well, it would all make sense once you realize that the origin of space, time, energy, and matter could not itself be bound or limited by space, time, energy, and matter.

Why not?

It should all begin to "flow together" for you at that point. But somehow, someway, I predict that it doesn't.

Maybe I'm too stupid to get it. Is being dumb a damnable sin?

God had an eternal will to create the world we live in.

How do you know God has an eternal will? Did you time his will forever?

Newsflash; arrogant, evil people does exist in this world, correct? Would you not agree with that?

Yes. I like some of them.

Well, the Bible agrees with that as well...and it just so happens that in this particular case, there was an arrogant, evil guy...named Lucifer.

Once upon a time?

Anyway, if we compare Lucifer to God, all Lucifer did was think that he could be like God. God, by contrast, kicked him and one-third of the angels out of heaven to the earth to tempt Eve resulting in most of us suffering in this life and maybe be eternally damned.

So how do you conclude that God is good and Lucifer bad?

In this world that we live in, people convince people to do bad things, don't they?

Sure, people tempt other people to do bad things, but talking snakes tempting people is another matter entirely.

Yeah, when your parents find out that you did something evil, they put you on punishment.

Hmm. This happens in the world we live in all the time, right?

Sure, but punishing snakes making them eat dirt is rare if it happens at all.

What is four thousand years to a being who has unlimited time and resources at his disposal?

You'll need to ask a being with unlimited time.

God is The Equalizer (with Denzel Washington; my favorite movie along with John Wick). Have you seen the movie?

I don't recall seeing the movie. Do you recommend I watch it?

God is the same way.

Why can't God and the equalizer just forgive transgressors?

Yeah, the idea was; do good, and I will bless you. Do bad, and I will discipline you.

Why not do good to everybody? If the transgressors are treated well, and they're happy, then maybe they won't continue to do evil.

Um, it wasn't himself, it was Jesus...

I thought Jesus was God. Am I wrong?

...and it was the way that he choose, based on the reasons that he had.

Why didn't God just have sex with Mary?

...I seriously doubt that if the Trinity doctrine was explained with more clarity to you (and others), that this explanation would have allowed you to become a professed believer.

True. It does not follow that if a claim is clear, then it must be true. Lies can be very clear yet still be lies.

That is contrary to the story of abiogenesis and macroevolution, where no one ever saw this magic...yet, that doesn't stop hard core guys in their white labs coats and their constituents from believing it, though.

Biologists are so irrational!

He told people to believe the truth...which I think is a good thing? Don't you?

Yes, it's generally a good idea to believe the truth. I try my best to do so.

Yeah, because if I am going to prove that I am both God-Man, I will eat fish (something that man does), and walk through walls and on water, something that only God can do.

Maybe advanced space-aliens can also walk through walls and on water. If you saw an alien doing so, would you believe it was God?

I choose not to be one of those billions of people who are casted into the lake of fire. What about you?

Sure. Tell me where that incendiary lake is located, and I will avoid going there.

If my children love me so much that they decide to sing to me every night, I will take that as a compliment...off-key or not.

Why does God need people to sing to him? Does he feel unloved?

So FTK, are you sure you haven't swallowed a lot of baloney? (And I don't mean for lunch, either.)

[sorrento]

[Replying to post 32 by 1213]

You said that you couldn't see any reason to think God curses someone because they had the wrong genitals. Well, he certainly seemed to have something against anyone who had crushed genitals. See Leviticus 21:20

[sorrento]

[Replying to post 13 by JehovahsWitness]

You can use all the verbal gymnastics you like JW in order to justify slavery in the bible such as calling it servitude and that the words salve and servant are interchangeable. Ths bible itself states very clearly that the slaves are the property of the slaver. Claiming ownership of another human being is totally repugnant and wrong.
Christians say that the biblical god did not condone slavery, that he was only regulating it. To me, that indicates that the biblical god tolerated slavery.
I also find it strange that the biblical god could command people not to wear certain materials, not to eat certain foodstuffs, not to work on a certain day, yet couldn't command people not to claim ownership of other human beings.
What do you think JW?

[For_The_Kingdom]

Of course, arrogant and evil people do exist in various nations, societies, cultures, religions. So what?

Can someone supply a simplistic explanation for the existence of such attitudes and actions?

I don't understand the relevance of the question.

Is Lucifer a real entity / being? Does it actually influence humans? How can either be determined (without taking someones word for it)?

Well, Lucifer can represent an actual entity/being who influences human behaviors and thoughts, or it can just represent the "bad" side of a person(s) who is being influenced by bad/evil thoughts...all on their own.

After all, being an unbeliever, you believe that some humans are "bad" people...so this "evil" has to come from somewhere, even if it isn't Lucifer...just call it...X.

Of course, parents punish all descendants of their evil doing child " or in some cases only a few generations of descendants. Standard practice. Right?

Oh, are you saying that there is a cap on how far the punishment stretches? Based on what? What make you draw that conclusion? Who sets the limits, and why are these pre-set limits set at the right dial, as opposed to any other dial?

Although I have zero interest in movies, I have no objection if people equate one fictional character with another fictional character.

Bruh, check out the movie. It is a good movie...recommendations..

1. Taken: An ex CIA agent's daughter gets kidnapped and sold in an Albania sex slave trade while vacationing in Paris, and the agent kicked a lot of butt to get her back.

2. The Equalizer: Former marine is living the slow life, until a young woman of whom he was mentoring gets beaten pretty bad by a Russian mafia who were pimping her. The former marine kicked a lot of butt to make things more..."equal".

3. John Wick: Former assassin John Wick is living the slow life, until someone killed his dog (that his deceased wife gave him), and stole his car. The punks soon realized that it is not what they done, it is who they did it TO!!

4. Jack Reacher: Watch this one too.

5. Peppermint: Typical housewife, her husband got involved with the wrong people, and they killed him and her daughter in front of her. Bad idea on their part.

You may not be in to movies, but check out each of those, and we can discuss them in the general discussion forum.

Feel free to start a thread to explain clearly the Trinity Doctrine. Theologians and scholars should be at your doorstep to learn what they have not been able for centuries to understand, explain and support with verifiable evidence.

If one can understand how me, my wife, and son can be of the same "human nature", yet remain three distinct persons (people)...then one should be able to understand how the father, son, and holy spirit can be of the same "divine" nature, yet remain three distinct persons.

Same concept. Now, proving this concept as true in the Bible can be tricky at times, but hey.

People can see magic any day in Las Vegas. Does that indicate the people involved are divine or superhuman?

I don't know. I am still waiting for Mother Nature to perform the reptile-bird magic trick. I haven't seen that one in Vegas yet.

Have the hard core guys in white lab coats claimed those were magic? Have they proclaimed themselves gods?

No, they claimed it happens in real life by natural law...all the more reason for me to question as to why I haven't seen it yet.

[Zzyzx]

.

Is Lucifer a real entity / being? Does it actually influence humans? How can either be determined (without taking someones word for it)?

Well, Lucifer can represent an actual entity/being who influences human behaviors and thoughts, or it can just represent the "bad" side of a person(s) who is being influenced by bad/evil thoughts...all on their own.

Staying flexible about meanings allows word play in lieu of actual debate.

After all, being an unbeliever, you believe that some humans are "bad" people...so this "evil" has to come from somewhere, even if it isn't Lucifer...just call it...X.

Being a Non-Theist does not compel me to conclude ANYTHING about good or bad people.

I dont believe your god tales means ONLY and EXACTLY that. Try to debate against my actual positions rather than a straw-man you construct to try to defeat.

Of course, parents punish all descendants of their evil doing child " or in some cases only a few generations of descendants. Standard practice. Right?

Oh, are you saying that there is a cap on how far the punishment stretches? Based on what? What make you draw that conclusion? Who sets the limits, and why are these pre-set limits set at the right dial, as opposed to any other dial?

Rational thinking indicates that parents do NOT punish future generations if their children disobey.

Is that difficult to comprehend? Do you disagree?

Are there examples of parents punishing grandchildren, great grandchildren and/or additional future generations when their children disobey?

Although I have zero interest in movies, I have no objection if people equate one fictional character with another fictional character.

You may not be in to movies, but check out each of those, and we can discuss them in the general discussion forum.

What part of I have zero interest in movies is so unclear and difficult to comprehend that any anonymous internet poster would be so foolish as to suggest that I set aside my disinterest in movies to watch several s/he suggests?

Rather than spend my time watching movies or television (have never owned a set), I prefer reading, research, and writing. I do NOT recommend this to others since widespread reading is likely to upset an apple cart of preordained conclusions and indoctrination (not to mention discovering glaring flaws in their religious beliefs and perhaps losing their faith).

Feel free to start a thread to explain clearly the Trinity Doctrine. Theologians and scholars should be at your doorstep to learn what they have not been able for centuries to understand, explain and support with verifiable evidence.

If one can understand how me, my wife, and son can be of the same "human nature", yet remain three distinct persons (people)...then one should be able to understand how the father, son, and holy spirit can be of the same "divine" nature, yet remain three distinct persons.

Any three people can be said to be of the same human nature " that does NOT indicate a trinity.

Perhaps a better example would be a person who exhibits multiple personalities; known to psychiatrists as Dissociative Identity Disorder

Same concept. Now, proving this concept as true in the Bible can be tricky at times, but hey.

Perhaps it is easier to just claim it is true and encourage people to believe on faith so they can go to heaven.

People can see magic any day in Las Vegas. Does that indicate the people involved are divine or superhuman?

I don't know. I am still waiting for Mother Nature to perform the reptile-bird magic trick. I haven't seen that one in Vegas yet.

What tricks have you seen gods perform?

How would you know which gods performed what tricks?

Have the hard core guys in white lab coats claimed those were magic? Have they proclaimed themselves gods?

No, they claimed it happens in real life by natural law...all the more reason for me to question as to why I haven't seen it yet.

Have you seen magic performed by gods? If not, all the more reason for [you] to question why [you] have not seen it yet. If you claim to have seen godly magic, what gods performed what magic AND how can that be verified?

[For_The_Kingdom]

As far as I can tell, the Christian god is very similar to a nothing. After all, no thing is spaceless, timeless, and exists everywhere.

Is that a statement of knowledge?

Well, it would all make sense once you realize that the origin of space, time, energy, and matter could not itself be bound or limited by space, time, energy, and matter.

Why not?

By "bound", I meant a "product of". God cannot be a product of space, time, energy, and matter (STEM) if STEM is what began to exist in the first place.

Maybe I'm too stupid to get it. Is being dumb a damnable sin?

No, but being willfully ignorant is.

How do you know God has an eternal will? Did you time his will forever?

Because God's will had to have been just as eternal as his self. If God lacked a will to create, but then "decided" to create, then there was a change, and change requires time..and eternal time implies absurdity.

Once upon a time?

Sure, just like according to evolutionists, "once upon a time" there existed reptiles who evolved into birds.

See? You mentioned a fairy tale, and I raised you one.

Anyway, if we compare Lucifer to God, all Lucifer did was think that he could be like God. God, by contrast, kicked him and one-third of the angels out of heaven to the earth to tempt Eve resulting in most of us suffering in this life and maybe be eternally damned.

So how do you conclude that God is good and Lucifer bad?

Wow, the first Lucifer sympathizer I've ever met lol.

Sure, people tempt other people to do bad things, but talking snakes tempting people is another matter entirely.

If God exists, snakes can talk.

Sure, but punishing snakes making them eat dirt is rare if it happens at all.

According to the Bible, it happened.

You'll need to ask a being with unlimited time.

Sure. I pray to God a lot.

I don't recall seeing the movie. Do you recommend I watch it?

Do I?? YES!!! Watch it, along with Taken, John Wick, Jack Reacher, and Peppermint. Lots to discuss there.

Why can't God and the equalizer just forgive transgressors?

Sometimes they do. But you know how it is; people take their kindness for weakness.

Why not do good to everybody? If the transgressors are treated well, and they're happy, then maybe they won't continue to do evil.

The crucifixion/resurrection was "doing good to everyone". What more do you want than that?

I thought Jesus was God. Am I wrong?

The Father/Son are both equally God, but they are not the same person.

Why didn't God just have sex with Mary?

I don't know. Ask him that on judgement day. Say "God, why didn't you just have sex with Mary"?

True. It does not follow that if a claim is clear, then it must be true. Lies can be very clear yet still be lies.

Impressive.

Maybe advanced space-aliens can also walk through walls and on water. If you saw an alien doing so, would you believe it was God?

It would certainly reinforce my belief in the supernatural for sure.

Sure. Tell me where that incendiary lake is located, and I will avoid going there.

*Points to Jesus* Believe in him, and you will avoid going there.

Why does God need people to sing to him? Does he feel unloved?

"Need" is such a strong word here.

So FTK, are you sure you haven't swallowed a lot of baloney? (And I don't mean for lunch, either.)

?