Is your gods punishment fair?

[Confused]

I am new to this site, so please bare with me if I seem a little of center. I will try to stick to the rules. After reading these threads for many years, I am just now getting the courage to start to ask questions of my own. feel free to correct me if I mess up.

Ok, lets for the sake of this thread say that the god of christianity is all knowing. Lets say the he knew what you were going to do before you were born, but loved you so much he still allowed your birth to occur. Let us even go far out into the left field and say that he knew what choices you would make in all decisions although he didn't force you to make them. I am not arguing free-will vs determinism. I am only wondering how it is that this god who knew what you would do, loved you so much he allowed your birth to do what you were going to do, and then punished you for doing what he knew you were going to do. If he already knew what would happen, and then allowed it to happen, how can he then turn around and sentence you to eternity in hell for what he knew you would do and allowed you to do?

Maybe I am missing some logical link here, but it seems to me that if this god knew the birth of an individual would result in the torture and death of even one person, isn't this god the actual guilty party for setting into motion an inevitable event? Is this the god that so many people would like for me to follow?

So does anyone know:
1) Does god love you so much that knowing what you would do and what you would become, he still allowed your birth so that you might know his love?

2) Is god some sadistic being who knows what you are going to do, allows you to be born, gets a cheap thrill watching you carry out some of the most sadistic crimes against humanity before sending you to the eternal fires of hell?

3) There is no god.

Personally, I have to say that there isn't enough available information to make an informed decision, but logic tells me its 3. If there is a god-fearing individual who can logically tell me otherwise, I would love to hear it.

[Goat]

Lets change it to a rampaging 6 ton elephant. This doesn't matter because it isn't the cookie/gun/elephant which is what Christians say is deadly. It is the sin of taking the cookie/gun/elephant.

The object itself is not dangerous no matter what the temptation is. The sin itself is what condemns someone, not the object. So change it to whatever you wish.


Your point is that God should be responsible for directly comming into a situation and causing us to only be able to choose the right option. But this is in DIRECT conflict with free will. If God the big parent came into the room and snatched away our cookie from our hand, then he just violated our free will because now there is no option to ignore/disobey him. The ONLY option is to accept him which is in effect forcing us.

You are ignoring the point. If you leave a loaded gun where a child can find it, and you know this child is too young to understand the consequences, what are YOUR responsiblities?

Think about it.

The child was given the ability to understand. I told her not to take the gun. Because she understands what I am saying and I said it, it now her choice to obey or not to obey. Remember that the gun itself is not dangerous. This is why I used a cookie at first but it really doesn't matter what it is.

Lets put names in.

I Chris, was told by God to avoid sleeping with everyone I see but to rather restrain myself for my wife.

Sleeping around in and of itself is not dangerous. It can be done safely with a lot of testing and protections. However, it is also a sin and that is what is dangerous about it. God's instructions were clear and the cnsequences for violating those instructions were equally clear.

See the gun is not the problem. The decision to disobey God, is what is dangerous, and he warned us about that.

Was that child given the ability to understand yet? Did that child already face the consequences, and therefor already learned what the conseqences of disobediance is?

You are not a child. You are not 'innoncent'. You were taught by your parents to know the difference between good and evil.

Adam and eve at that point were not told. They did not have the knowledge of good and evil to understand the consequences of good and evil.

That is why at least one Jewish interpretation is that God purposely let man 'fail'.. as a learning tool. It is only by having free will and being able to choose between good and evil can man choose good, and become closer to God.

[Solon]

So we're assuming an omnipotent, omniscient God is doling out punishment in this scenario. This would mean that God knows, before someone is born, all the evil they will choose to do. For God it has already happened. If that is the case then how can the person choose differently than God sees before he is born without God needing to be less than omniscient or perfectly omniscient? In this case the person, not even born, has to make the poor decisions God has seen or else it would prove God is not all-knowing.

Another question, if God can do anything (omnipotent) then why not create a world where all the humans are such that through their free will choose to be good? Why create a world where people will do evil in the first place? It seems like if before God ever said "Fiat Lux" he already knew of the need to send people to hell. Why not tweak things until you have people with free will and nature such that they will choose good? Then say "Fiat Lux" If you put a design flaw in then you're responsible for the errors. If Adam was perfect and had no design flaws he wouldn't have disobeyed or been tricked into eating the apple, that is not a sign of perfection.

[Goat]

So we're assuming an omnipotent, omniscient God is doling out punishment in this scenario. This would mean that God knows, before someone is born, all the evil they will choose to do. For God it has already happened. If that is the case then how can the person choose differently than God sees before he is born without God needing to be less than omniscient or perfectly omniscient? In this case the person, not even born, has to make the poor decisions God has seen or else it would prove God is not all-knowing.

Another question, if God can do anything (omnipotent) then why not create a world where all the humans are such that through their free will choose to be good? Why create a world where people will do evil in the first place? It seems like if before God ever said "Fiat Lux" he already knew of the need to send people to hell. Why not tweak things until you have people with free will and nature such that they will choose good? Then say "Fiat Lux" If you put a design flaw in then you're responsible for the errors. If Adam was perfect and had no design flaws he wouldn't have disobeyed or been tricked into eating the apple, that is not a sign of perfection.

Of course, this condunrum can be avoided if you don't believe that God knows the future perfectly. . Thereis also having the punishment fit the crime. IN the case of 'an eternal hell', the punishment does not fit the crime.

[Solon]

That is true, I did mention Omniscience in my post. A non-perfect knowledge of the future is one way around that, however it doesn't make the punishment fair, that only explains free will. Having the punishment fit the crime is a way to resolve this, but I think the whole point of this debate is whether God's punishment or what he sees as worthy of punishment is fair. So yes, if the punishment is fair then God's punishment is fair, but that doesn't get us very far from the OP. We're then left with the questions, what is fair punishment? and what is worthy of punishment? There are a lot of threads open already about whether certain things are actually evil or if some bronze age goatherd elder said, "gay sex is icky" and threw that one in for good measure on his own.

[BobFromAccounting]

What I would ike to know is 'why you think there is a hell'. and 'why do you think that a persons suffering in hell is eternal'.

For the same reason I believe there is a Heaven and the eternal love that is there.

Think about the person you love the most. Does your love for them die when you die?

We all have something that is eternal. Someone may call it your soul or spirit...the very essence of you. If someone's essence (for example) is to hurt other people, where should they go?

[Goat]

What I would ike to know is 'why you think there is a hell'. and 'why do you think that a persons suffering in hell is eternal'.

For the same reason I believe there is a Heaven and the eternal love that is there.

Think about the person you love the most. Does your love for them die when you die?

We all have something that is eternal. Someone may call it your soul or spirit...the very essence of you. If someones essence (for example) is to hurt other people, where should they go?

The view that is reiterated in the Zohar is that a soul will be purified for up to a year in Ghenna, after which it will go to the World to Come. If a soul is too corrupted to be purified, after a year, it will be granted obviation.

[McCulloch]

I believe there is a Heaven and the eternal love that is there.

Think about the person you love the most. Does your love for them die when you die?

We all have something that is eternal. Someone may call it your soul or spirit...the very essence of you. If someone's essence (for example) is to hurt other people, where should they go?

When you see a beautiful sunset, does your appreciation for that sunset end when the sunset is over? Is there, therefore, something eternal in the sunset? Does a sunset have a soul?

[achilles12604]

So we're assuming an omnipotent, omniscient God is doling out punishment in this scenario. This would mean that God knows, before someone is born, all the evil they will choose to do. For God it has already happened. If that is the case then how can the person choose differently than God sees before he is born without God needing to be less than omniscient or perfectly omniscient? In this case the person, not even born, has to make the poor decisions God has seen or else it would prove God is not all-knowing.

Another question, if God can do anything (omnipotent) then why not create a world where all the humans are such that through their free will choose to be good? Why create a world where people will do evil in the first place? It seems like if before God ever said "Fiat Lux" he already knew of the need to send people to hell. Why not tweak things until you have people with free will and nature such that they will choose good? Then say "Fiat Lux" If you put a design flaw in then you're responsible for the errors. If Adam was perfect and had no design flaws he wouldn't have disobeyed or been tricked into eating the apple, that is not a sign of perfection.

What is the difference between this and no free will at all?

[Solon]

What is the difference between this and no free will at all?

Well really I'm not sure what the difference is between everything you're ever going to do being known before you are born and having no free will. How can a decision be changed or be a decision at all if God already knows all the choices you'll ever make. It's not as if you could choose differently, that would mean God's knowledge was flawed.
I see the real problem as either we have free will or God's knowledge of the future cannot be perfect. If God's knowledge is perfect then we don't have a choice really, it just looks like we do as we're living through it, but we cannot deviate from God's perfect knowledge of how history unfolds. If we're going to have the illusion of free will though (via a perfectly omniscient God) then it seems a little cruel to make people who he already knows get to burn for eternity. Why even bother at that point? Is eternal hellfire less terrible than non-existence?

[achilles12604]

What is the difference between this and no free will at all?

Well really I'm not sure what the difference is between everything you're ever going to do being known before you are born and having no free will. How can a decision be changed or be a decision at all if God already knows all the choices you'll ever make. It's not as if you could choose differently, that would mean God's knowledge was flawed.
I see the real problem as either we have free will or God's knowledge of the future cannot be perfect. If God's knowledge is perfect then we don't have a choice really, it just looks like we do as we're living through it, but we cannot deviate from God's perfect knowledge of how history unfolds. If we're going to have the illusion of free will though (via a perfectly omniscient God) then it seems a little cruel to make people who he already knows get to burn for eternity. Why even bother at that point? Is eternal hellfire less terrible than non-existence?

I hope most people have kids because this will be much clearer for them.

Well really I'm not sure what the difference is between everything you're ever going to do being known before you are born and having no free will. How can a decision be changed or be a decision at all if God already knows all the choices you'll ever make.

A parent of a child knows that if you leave a piece of candy on th table and don't tell them anything about it, they will pick up the candy. There is not reason not to.

Now if this same parent tells the child, not to take the candy because it is close to dinner and they will spoil their dinner, there is now a choice to be made. Should the child obey their parents or do what they want to? This is the choice to be made by the child.

Just because the parent knows from prior experience (or in God's case infinate knowledge) that the child will choose to disobey, this does not mean the child doesn't have the choice to obey or not.


Another analogy. Inmates.

People know what the laws say. They know that their are consequences for breaking the laws. Yet many people still break the laws. It is their choice to do so and because they can choose, the laws are sometimes broken. Does this mean that Government hs failed its society? No of course not. Government made the rules and was very clear about the consequences. In fact they are all written down in a big blue book called The Colorado Revised Statutes. People know the laws. They were told and they were also told about the punishments of breaking the laws. Because people will break rules and do what they want does not mean that the Government failed to try and stop them. Their free will made a choice.

On this same road, a lot of the inmates complain about how bad they have it. They don't want to be punished for what they do. These men complain that the system is not clear, or it should rule their lives. After all it is a free country and they think they should do what they want. You would be astounded how many "innocent" people I have here. In my 2 years in law enforcement I have only found 3 people who will admit they did what they are in trouble for and that they deserve to be punished.

3 out of thousands.

I think these are the few who I will never see again. they will never get into law trouble again because they realized the ramifications of their actions.

MOST of the others we will see again. In fact I am beginning to see old faces again already after only 2 years.

These guys who complain about the punishments being to harsh remind me of Goat's arguement.

Thereis also having the punishment fit the crime. IN the case of 'an eternal hell', the punishment does not fit the crime.

The prisoners I have are amazed that they are given a year in Jail for a secnd DUI, but they are only thinking about themselves. The don't realize that they could kill innocent people by doing what they are doing. But they still think it is unfair because they do not grasp what the consequences of their actions are.


Same with us. We have no idea what a lifetime of rejecting God will do. We are only told not to do it because it is wrong. So when someone complains that a lifetime of rebellion does not deserve an eternity of exile, I say they should look at it from another prespective than their own if they are capable of that.

As I asked in my thread "Who then should be saved?", why should God accept someone into his house who has always rejected and fought against him their whole lives? Would you invite someone who rebelled against you for a hundred years to come and live with you and everyone you hold dear? Would you invite them into your house, give them a room right next to someone else who loved you and didn't end up rejecting you?

What atheists ask for from God (what a good God should do in their opinions), is nothing less that total and complete injustice. Eternal injustice.

[/u]