Biblical Writings as Historical Fiction

[SallyF]

Historical fiction is defined as movies and novels in which a story is made up but is set in the past and sometimes borrows true characteristics of the time period in which it is set. https://www.yourdictionary.com/historical-fiction

Historical Fiction:
the genre of literature, film, etc., comprising narratives that take place in the past and are characterized chiefly by an imaginative reconstruction of historical events and personages. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/historical-fiction

The genre of historical fiction in the field of children’s literature
includes stories that are written to portray a time period or
convey information about a specific time period or an historical
event. Usually the event or time period is about 30 years in the
past. http://www.readwritethink.org/files/res ... onDefn.pdf

We successfully determined in an earlier thread that biblical writings can often safely be shown to fit definitions of fantasy fiction.

Can we determine that biblical writings can also be shown to fit definitions of historical fiction ...?

(For purposes of this topic, the definitions off historical fiction given above may mean just whatever we choose them to mean ... and no further explanation is necessary.)

[Zzyzx]

.

Can we determine that biblical writings can also be shown to fit definitions of historical fiction ...?

One BIG indication that biblical tales were NOT factual accounts: Many were written with the 'Omniscient Observer' literary point of view – as I said in a thread last year.

Omniscient Observer is a literary technique in which the writer pretends to know the thoughts of characters in a story and what they did and said when alone (when the writer / observer was not present).

The Bible contains many examples of Omniscient Observer narrative; for instance describing what was said and done when God formed the Earth and made the first man and woman (where by definition an observer was impossible), or knowing what Jesus did and said when alone in a desert.

This makes for a good story, but it is a technique for writing FICTION. In a non-fictional account the writer does not know the thoughts of characters or what they do or say when alone.

Does Omniscient Observer narrative suggest that Bible writers were writing fiction?

How could a writer of non-fiction know the thoughts of characters or their words and actions when they were alone?

[SallyF]

The canonical Gospels exist as sequences of narrative and dramatic scenes. This is not surprising: how else would one tell the “story� of Jesus? What is surprising is the great differences among the stories, even though they share, for the most part, similar sources. For example, according to Matthew and Mark, the dying words of Jesus were, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� According to Luke, Jesus’ dying words were “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.� But according to John, they were, “It is accomplished.� To put it another way, we cannot know what the dying words of Jesus were, or even whether he uttered any; it is not that we have too little information, but that we have too much. Each narrative implicitly argues that the others are fictional. In this case at least, it is inappropriate to ask of the Gospels what “actually� happened; they may pretend to be telling us, but the effort remains a pretense, a fiction.
https://www.bismikaallahuma.org/bible/t ... narrative/

The full excerpt is worth a careful read.

So YES …

We CAN demonstrate that biblical writings fit DEFINITIONS of historical fiction.

AND …

We can demonstrate that certain of them ARE historical fiction.

What not a soul EVER does …

Is demonstrate that a single biblical tale (not just the odd detail) is non-fiction.

We have clearly determined that biblical "scripture" not only fits DEFINITIONS of fantasy and historical fiction …

We have clearly determined that certain biblical writings ARE fantasy and historical fiction.

And we have clearly established the total absence of evidence of any sort for the influence of the Jehovah/Jesus/Holy Ghost version of "God" in the biblical "scriptures".

[Zzyzx]

.

For example, according to Matthew and Mark, the dying words of Jesus were, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� According to Luke, Jesus’ dying words were “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.� But according to John, they were, “It is accomplished.� To put it another way, we cannot know what the dying words of Jesus were, or even whether he uttered any; it is not that we have too little information, but that we have too much. Each narrative implicitly argues that the others are fictional.

Were any of the gospel writers present to hear 'the last words of Jesus'?

Unless they were present, they are NOT reporting what was said -- but what someone TOLD them was said. That is hearsay, rumor, folklore, legend, myth, or whatever -- but not factual account by a witness to events.

[Difflugia]

We have the author of Luke stating specifically how he came to write his gospel:

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the Word. With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

If you have a spare hour or so, I recommend first reading the short introduction to A Princess of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs and then the much longer pair of introductions in the 30th anniversary edition of William Goldman's The Princess Bride.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 1 by SallyF]

Anything is possible, but I am not sure why the hypothesis should be supported.

Do you have a specific reason why you think the Bible is historical fiction? I am looking for something more than, “Hey, this match with what I already believe is true!�

RESPONSE: In chapter 2 Matthew you will find that Matthew claims Jesus was born while King Herod was still alive. Herod died in 4 B.C.

In Luke 2 you will read that Jesus born during the Roman census of Judea ( 6 A.D.)

This is an obviously a contradiction. Logically it would mean that Mary had 2 sons born 10 year apart and both named Jesus.

[tam]

Peace to you,

.

For example, according to Matthew and Mark, the dying words of Jesus were, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� According to Luke, Jesus’ dying words were “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.� But according to John, they were, “It is accomplished.� To put it another way, we cannot know what the dying words of Jesus were, or even whether he uttered any; it is not that we have too little information, but that we have too much. Each narrative implicitly argues that the others are fictional.

Were any of the gospel writers present to hear 'the last words of Jesus'?

Yes, according to the evidence that we have, at least one writer was present. The "disciple Christ loved" (the author of "John").


(What he recorded is not in contradiction to what others recorded on the matter; there is no reason at all that others could not have heard Christ say more than just this one thing while up on the cross.)

Unless they were present, they are NOT reporting what was said -- but what someone TOLD them was said.

Indeed (though see above). Luke even states that he wrote things down that others witnessed. Luke was not an eyewitness. But this (reporting what others told them happened) does not fit into the category of historical fiction.

That is hearsay, rumor, folklore, legend, myth, or whatever -- but not factual account by a witness to events.

Journalists and investigators often write about what others tell them (witness testimony). Hearsay and rumor may apply in such instances (though one is expected to investigate such things to affirm them). Folklore, legend, myth would not apply.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[SallyF]

Peace to you,

.

For example, according to Matthew and Mark, the dying words of Jesus were, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� According to Luke, Jesus’ dying words were “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.� But according to John, they were, “It is accomplished.� To put it another way, we cannot know what the dying words of Jesus were, or even whether he uttered any; it is not that we have too little information, but that we have too much. Each narrative implicitly argues that the others are fictional.

Were any of the gospel writers present to hear 'the last words of Jesus'?

Yes, according to the evidence that we have, at least one writer was present. The "disciple Christ loved" (the author of "John").


(What he recorded is not in contradiction to what others recorded on the matter; there is no reason at all that others could not have heard Christ say more than just this one thing while up on the cross.)

Unless they were present, they are NOT reporting what was said -- but what someone TOLD them was said.

Indeed (though see above). Luke even states that he wrote things down that others witnessed. Luke was not an eyewitness. But this (reporting what others told them happened) does not fit into the category of historical fiction.

That is hearsay, rumor, folklore, legend, myth, or whatever -- but not factual account by a witness to events.

Journalists and investigators often write about what others tell them (witness testimony). Hearsay and rumor may apply in such instances (though one is expected to investigate such things to affirm them). Folklore, legend, myth would not apply.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

The ONLY place we find accounts of this stuff is in the Christian-Jewish propaganda.

People just make stuff up …

And can COLLABORATE on the fabrication.

Not a single Christian I know of has EVER demonstrated that a single Jesus story is NOT just historical fiction.

Propagandists calling themselves Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, or Whoever, who are promoting the SAME supposedly Divine Leader can club together and say roughly the SAME stuff …

But the SAME STUFF may still be …




Which is why mouthy New Atheists like me demand independently verifiable evidence.

We NEVER get ANY.

Which makes us grateful that we have escaped the brainwashing of our childhood.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

.

For example, according to Matthew and Mark, the dying words of Jesus were, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� According to Luke, Jesus’ dying words were “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.� But according to John, they were, “It is accomplished.� To put it another way, we cannot know what the dying words of Jesus were, or even whether he uttered any; it is not that we have too little information, but that we have too much. Each narrative implicitly argues that the others are fictional.

Were any of the gospel writers present to hear 'the last words of Jesus'?

Yes, according to the evidence that we have, at least one writer was present. The "disciple Christ loved" (the author of "John").


(What he recorded is not in contradiction to what others recorded on the matter; there is no reason at all that others could not have heard Christ say more than just this one thing while up on the cross.)

Unless they were present, they are NOT reporting what was said -- but what someone TOLD them was said.

Indeed (though see above). Luke even states that he wrote things down that others witnessed. Luke was not an eyewitness. But this (reporting what others told them happened) does not fit into the category of historical fiction.

That is hearsay, rumor, folklore, legend, myth, or whatever -- but not factual account by a witness to events.

Journalists and investigators often write about what others tell them (witness testimony). Hearsay and rumor may apply in such instances (though one is expected to investigate such things to affirm them). Folklore, legend, myth would not apply.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

The ONLY place we find accounts of this stuff is in the Christian-Jewish propaganda.

Which would include many separate accounts of similar events; as you have said yourself when you claim there is no 'bible' (which is correct, that is actually a collection of books and letters written over a long period of time with multiple authors and multiple testimony accounts).

People just make stuff up …


And can COLLABORATE on the fabrication.

Do you have any evidence that this occurred here (including independently verifiable evidence, which is what you said you require)?

Not a single Christian I know of has EVER demonstrated that a single Jesus story is NOT just historical fiction.

So you are asking people to prove a negative?


I believe it is upon you (or others) to prove that it IS historical fiction. Something you have not done. And certainly not with the standards you claim you require (independently verifiable evidence).

Propagandists calling themselves Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, or Whoever, who are promoting the SAME supposedly Divine Leader can club together and say roughly the SAME stuff …

Do you have any evidence for this? If not, why are you suggesting it?

Individual people who witnessed (and/or knew those who witnessed) the same person and events would also say roughly the same stuff.

Which is why mouthy New Atheists like me demand independently verifiable evidence.

Apparently not always. None of the things you have posited have anything remotely close to the kind of evidence you want.

We NEVER get ANY.

Which makes us grateful that we have escaped the brainwashing of our childhood.

I was never brainwashed as a child. My faith comes from God and is built upon His Son (the living Son). I do not just 'believe' they exist; I know it, and my faith is in them - based upon evidence. The voice of my Lord, the presence of my Lord and my Father in heaven (from childhood on, in fact, I have no memory of anytime I did not sense God). My Lord has Himself verified to me (and not just to me) the fact that He lives and speaks (something that the gospels attest to as well).






Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[SallyF]

[Replying to post 38 by tam]

People CAN collaborate, or plagiarise, when writing propaganda.

Scholars (and we love trot out that word) tell us Mathew and Luke are based on Mark.

Looks VERY suspicious to this New Atheist.

………………………………….

The Jesus stories look, quack and waddle like historical fiction and fantasy fiction.

Christians tell us they are real.

It's reasonable to ask them to demonstrate that they are NOT fiction …

Or demonstrate that they ARE real.

And not avoid the issue by playing with the meanings of words and phrases and terminology.

But no …

Some that I know keep quacking loudly and waddling away.

……………………………………………..

I was never brainwashed as a child. My faith comes from God and is built upon His Son (the living Son). I do not just 'believe' they exist; I know it, and my faith is in them - based upon evidence. The voice of my Lord, the presence of my Lord and my Father in heaven (from childhood on, in fact, I have no memory of anytime I did not sense God). My Lord has Himself verified to me (and not just to me) the fact that He lives and speaks (something that the gospels attest to as well).

You have made a helpful distinction between "believe" and "know".

Which is VERY useful for the "Atheists not having beliefs" thread ....

You mention "evidence"

Which is again very helpful.

You mention YOUR evidence as the voice of your Lord.

Is the voice of your Lord happening anywhere other than in your own head ...?

If not ...

You have made my points for me.