Hate the Sin and Love the Sinner

[micatala]

Many Christians, when accused of being hateful or intolerant because of their statements concerning sin in general or examples of people who are in their view sinning, respond with the phrase 'hate the sin but love the sinner.'

What does this exactly mean?

To ask this question in 'loaded form,' is this phrase just a dodge to try and avoid the criticism that some CHristians harbor hateful attitudes or engage in hateful behavior?

Finally, what is the Biblical justification for this statement? Is there any?

[johned]

" I would hate him with all my heart. I would hope I didn't cause the same mistake, but I couldn't do it.[/quote]

I am obviously new to this forum and new to all such posting, and if I am breaking etiquette for posting, or if I am getting off track, please let me know and I will move on accordingly......my desire is to add if at all possible to others understanding while allowing others to sharpen my understanding of this very interesting topic. Having said that...

They way I see it, like love, and like forgiveness, (among others) hate is a choice of the heart that culminates in shaping outward behavior or non behavior (which is in itself behavior.)

In my emotions I would desire to kill such a one who causes the harm that is spoken of in that ER room.

But at the same time in my emotions I have a sadness that comes from disobeying what I know to be my Fathers will.

So I will act on the second emotion and outwardly do things that are "loving" focusing on my behavior pleasing the One who died for me and not anyone else. My belief is then that all will go well for all involved, even the victim, and yes the perpetrator if I act in love. Why, because among other things i believe "Love never fails."

NOw what real love looks like is not the American view of love. (we have so many twisted spiritual views in this country that we accept as norm that are not. for one example, we portray angels as being female and gentle. The biblical view of angels is that they are always male and always frightening. Just try and find a male christmas ornament in a store...impossible because we choose to belive a lie about what angels are truly like if you belive the Bible.) Love is holding the perpetrator (who according to statistics will be a female) accountable. After all, how loving is it to allow a perpetrator to live in inner turmoil and be allowed to keep abusing?

For me its not the outward behavior. Its the "why" of any behavior. If I turn in the person out of hate, then I am in the wrong as that hate is among other things, self destructive. If I turn the person in out of love I am in the right. (My bible tells me that the LORD disciplines those he loves. Again, see how love in my view has a different meaning than most in this country.) If I let the person go out of fear (of any kind; fear of getting sued, fear of the unknown, what will happen to the victim now, etc) I am personally in the wrong. (and for me I am wrong because I am not acting in faith toward my God. I am saying, "LORD, not this time, your wrong," and I can't do that.)

Love the sinner hate the sin...of course. I hope my children, my wife, and my community treat me that way...why would I want to treat anybody else any less than the way I want to be treated?

If one thinks love is weak and cowering and one thinks forgiving is tantamount to allowing someone to shrink from their responsibilities...then love the sinner hate the sin takes on a whole new meaning, one which I am not comfortable with and would utterly reject out of hand.

Now again in my emotions....I would want to kill the perpetrator myself and it would be a major test of my faith...I concede that a thousand times over!

jed

[Confused]

" I would hate him with all my heart. I would hope I didn't cause the same mistake, but I couldn't do it.

I am obviously new to this forum and new to all such posting, and if I am breaking etiquette for posting, or if I am getting off track, please let me know and I will move on accordingly......my desire is to add if at all possible to others understanding while allowing others to sharpen my understanding of this very interesting topic. Having said that...

They way I see it, like love, and like forgiveness, (among others) hate is a choice of the heart that culminates in shaping outward behavior or non behavior (which is in itself behavior.)

In my emotions I would desire to kill such a one who causes the harm that is spoken of in that ER room.

But at the same time in my emotions I have a sadness that comes from disobeying what I know to be my Fathers will.

So I will act on the second emotion and outwardly do things that are "loving" focusing on my behavior pleasing the One who died for me and not anyone else. My belief is then that all will go well for all involved, even the victim, and yes the perpetrator if I act in love. Why, because among other things i believe "Love never fails."

NOw what real love looks like is not the American view of love. (we have so many twisted spiritual views in this country that we accept as norm that are not. for one example, we portray angels as being female and gentle. The biblical view of angels is that they are always male and always frightening. Just try and find a male christmas ornament in a store...impossible because we choose to belive a lie about what angels are truly like if you belive the Bible.) Love is holding the perpetrator (who according to statistics will be a female) accountable. After all, how loving is it to allow a perpetrator to live in inner turmoil and be allowed to keep abusing?

For me its not the outward behavior. Its the "why" of any behavior. If I turn in the person out of hate, then I am in the wrong as that hate is among other things, self destructive. If I turn the person in out of love I am in the right. (My bible tells me that the LORD disciplines those he loves. Again, see how love in my view has a different meaning than most in this country.) If I let the person go out of fear (of any kind; fear of getting sued, fear of the unknown, what will happen to the victim now, etc) I am personally in the wrong. (and for me I am wrong because I am not acting in faith toward my God. I am saying, "LORD, not this time, your wrong," and I can't do that.)

Love the sinner hate the sin...of course. I hope my children, my wife, and my community treat me that way...why would I want to treat anybody else any less than the way I want to be treated?

If one thinks love is weak and cowering and one thinks forgiving is tantamount to allowing someone to shrink from their responsibilities...then love the sinner hate the sin takes on a whole new meaning, one which I am not comfortable with and would utterly reject out of hand.

Now again in my emotions....I would want to kill the perpetrator myself and it would be a major test of my faith...I concede that a thousand times over!

jed[/quote]

I truly understand what you are saying. And I hope for your sake that you never get put to that test. But let me assure you that people are, every single day. And I see it. I can't say that I would pass judgement on the person, but I can't say I would love them either. You say God knows what is in your heart. If you outwardly show "love" while inwardly want to beat the heck out of the molester, abuser, murder, or whatever, then you still fall short of Gods love the sinner, hate the sin "theory".

[johned]

I truly understand what you are saying. And I hope for your sake that you never get put to that test. But let me assure you that people are, every single day. And I see it. I can't say that I would pass judgement on the person, but I can't say I would love them either. You say God knows what is in your heart. If you outwardly show "love" while inwardly want to beat the heck out of the molester, abuser, murder, or whatever, then you still fall short of Gods love the sinner, hate the sin "theory".[/quote]

In your eyes I may fall short, but I come from the view that its what we do with the thoughts and desires and feelings that matters. I will try to limit myself to siting one example and see if I can "splain" myself a bit better.

I believe that Jesus dying on the cross was an act of love by both Father God and by the Son. I will just focus on the Son in this post.

The Son, I do not believe, had lots of what most would consider to be loving thoughts on His mind. For example when they drove the nails into his hand I don't believe he thought to himself, "I just love these guys. I just have lots of warm fuzzy feelings right now toward them." (I am being overly dramatic in an attempt to clarify myself and to convey a thought.) When they shoved thorns deep into his skull and them beat him in the head with a mock scepter, I don't believe He was like, "My heart is just overflowing with love right now."

No. Jesus demonstrated his love by behavior. "God demonstrated his love for us that when we were yet sinners, christ died for the ungodly." (Paraphrased from memory, not an exact quote, but the gist is there.)

Jesus sweat drops of blood. He pleaded with the FAther not to go to the cross. I dare say that Jesus hated the idea of the cross but loved humanity enough to act on that and not act on his repulsion at the thought of going to the cross and being among other things "forsaken."

You see feelings come and go. For the person I am married to, every 30 days feelings change hourly for a day or so. Right now, make yourself happy. Make yourself sad. Make yourself think highly of a rapist. You can't. Where I live its sunny all the stinking time..its depressing. Others live where there are only clouds and the sight of the sun actually cheers them. Our emotions are products of things which I am not qualified to speak of...I just know they come and go...so what.

Now how I choose to treat my life long male San Fransico living friend whose lifestlye clashes with mine in the most profound ways. I would dare say that he would say I am a sorry excuse for trying to love the sinner and hate the sin. He would say that since he tries to tolerate me, even though he pisses me off quite frequently, that he is a better example of it. I piss him off in so many ways its unreal...but I honestly never try to. I am constantly trying to learn how to adjust my behavior to accept him and properly display love by expressing my concern for his whole being in the most loving way I know how. (and yes I can go years without mentioning anything meaningfuly challenging to him. Eventually I find my actions being motivated by fear of losing any relationship with him and that I find I am no longer acting in love and am motivated to gentle point out a thing or two.)

In my heart I know that I love him and hate in so many ways words can't describe the choices he has made and the unbelievable painful, family- separating, body- destroying consequences that have come as a result of those decisions. That I hate that "sin" is equal to hating the heart disease that killed my grandfather. (tears in my eyes as i type) I choose to love his partners for his sake, but have no real hatred for their choices...why, because I just don't love them as much...just yet. (they come and go so often its just a challenge...for someone who has been married for over 20 yrs.)

NOw to love the man who runs a school bus stop sign and jeopardizes my childrens lives....I'm back to an area that I need work on...way before I can have an ER experience. But even in that i know i wont be placed in any position I can't handle

Translation and conclusion: I believe that God will never put me in a position where I cant choose to believe His ways over what I think should be my ways. I may be stretched beyond my own abilities, but I can choose to believe He is love and that HIs ways are the best for everyone.

[Confused]

I truly understand what you are saying. And I hope for your sake that you never get put to that test. But let me assure you that people are, every single day. And I see it. I can't say that I would pass judgement on the person, but I can't say I would love them either. You say God knows what is in your heart. If you outwardly show "love" while inwardly want to beat the heck out of the molester, abuser, murder, or whatever, then you still fall short of Gods love the sinner, hate the sin "theory".

In your eyes I may fall short, but I come from the view that its what we do with the thoughts and desires and feelings that matters. I will try to limit myself to siting one example and see if I can "splain" myself a bit better.

I believe that Jesus dying on the cross was an act of love by both Father God and by the Son. I will just focus on the Son in this post.

The Son, I do not believe, had lots of what most would consider to be loving thoughts on His mind. For example when they drove the nails into his hand I don't believe he thought to himself, "I just love these guys. I just have lots of warm fuzzy feelings right now toward them." (I am being overly dramatic in an attempt to clarify myself and to convey a thought.) When they shoved thorns deep into his skull and them beat him in the head with a mock scepter, I don't believe He was like, "My heart is just overflowing with love right now."

No. Jesus demonstrated his love by behavior. "God demonstrated his love for us that when we were yet sinners, christ died for the ungodly." (Paraphrased from memory, not an exact quote, but the gist is there.)

Jesus sweat drops of blood. He pleaded with the FAther not to go to the cross. I dare say that Jesus hated the idea of the cross but loved humanity enough to act on that and not act on his repulsion at the thought of going to the cross and being among other things "forsaken."

You see feelings come and go. For the person I am married to, every 30 days feelings change hourly for a day or so. Right now, make yourself happy. Make yourself sad. Make yourself think highly of a rapist. You can't. Where I live its sunny all the stinking time..its depressing. Others live where there are only clouds and the sight of the sun actually cheers them. Our emotions are products of things which I am not qualified to speak of...I just know they come and go...so what.

Now how I choose to treat my life long male San Fransico living friend whose lifestlye clashes with mine in the most profound ways. I would dare say that he would say I am a sorry excuse for trying to love the sinner and hate the sin. He would say that since he tries to tolerate me, even though he pisses me off quite frequently, that he is a better example of it. I piss him off in so many ways its unreal...but I honestly never try to. I am constantly trying to learn how to adjust my behavior to accept him and properly display love by expressing my concern for his whole being in the most loving way I know how. (and yes I can go years without mentioning anything meaningfuly challenging to him. Eventually I find my actions being motivated by fear of losing any relationship with him and that I find I am no longer acting in love and am motivated to gentle point out a thing or two.)

In my heart I know that I love him and hate in so many ways words can't describe the choices he has made and the unbelievable painful, family- separating, body- destroying consequences that have come as a result of those decisions. That I hate that "sin" is equal to hating the heart disease that killed my grandfather. (tears in my eyes as i type) I choose to love his partners for his sake, but have no real hatred for their choices...why, because I just don't love them as much...just yet. (they come and go so often its just a challenge...for someone who has been married for over 20 yrs.)

NOw to love the man who runs a school bus stop sign and jeopardizes my childrens lives....I'm back to an area that I need work on...way before I can have an ER experience. But even in that i know i wont be placed in any position I can't handle

Translation and conclusion: I believe that God will never put me in a position where I cant choose to believe His ways over what I think should be my ways. I may be stretched beyond my own abilities, but I can choose to believe He is love and that HIs ways are the best for everyone.

[/quote]
I don't dispute that you believe God will never put you in such a position where you can't handle it. I know it says so in scripture. But I can't count how many I have heard say the same thing and then been hit with that challenge and lost faith as a result. I hope for your sake you are right. But Christ himself condemned the sinners in many of his scripture. He didn't just condemn the sin. So how can this hold water?

[johned]

I don't dispute that you believe God will never put you in such a position where you can't handle it. I know it says so in scripture. But I can't count how many I have heard say the same thing and then been hit with that challenge and lost faith as a result. I hope for your sake you are right. But Christ himself condemned the sinners in many of his scripture. He didn't just condemn the sin. So how can this hold water?[/quote]

What Christ did in "condeming the sinners" is an interesting point that I will need to think aboout...thats a very very very good point. My knee jerk thought is that he was condemning of those who claimed to walk in obedience but didn't and was merciful to those who didn't claim such obedience...so there was definetly a distinction. but exactly why? Hmmm. Why codemn hyocrites and not others? (i do know tht a hypocrite is not someone who sins, but someone who sins and holds others to a different standard. like the high profile pastor caught recently withs ome sexul sin...not a hypocrite because he admnits it is all wrong. he would be a hypocrite if he excused his own sin while condemning others.)

I was just thinking the other day about how Jesus allowed the woman caught in adultery to go free with the request for her to go and sin no more.

I wonder why he was so highly critical of some of the religious folk and so graceful with the case I just mentioned...and the woman at the well comes to mind too...hmmm.

I shall have to think about this seemnng contradiction that you posed. good night.

(a bigger problem for now is figuring out how to post these messages better...the faq area isn't very helpful to somoen as slight of mind as myself.)

[micatala]

(a bigger problem for now is figuring out how to post these messages better...the faq area isn't very helpful to somoen as slight of mind as myself.)

Welcome johned. On a technical note, what I typically do is copy and paste in the text I want to quote. Then, while it is still highlighted, hit the quote button over the reply window. To add the name of the person quote, add in

="johned"

write after the word quote and before the close bracket ].

The POint: Wesley said to love the sinner and hate the sin so THAT YOU YOURSELF won't get trapped in what you consider to be the sinful activity you beleive the other to be in.

I think you are right on here. The Bible deals in several places with the tension between accepting people and allowing them to make their own choices, and 'protecting our own faith' by avoiding people or situations that might cause us to sin.

A person who has no trouble controlling their anger could easily engage with people who are easily angered, and be a help. Another person might end up responding in kind and so the two would end up in a fight. If the latter person knows they do not deal well with angry people, it might be best for him or her to avoid them.

In Romans 14, Paul discusses how believers can, in faith, engage in different practices and, as long as each is acting in faith, this is OK. If a person cannot in good faith 'eat meat' or whatever else it is, then for him it is sinful. ANother may be able to 'eat meat' just fine without sinning. Paul asks us to be sure to act for the benefit of our brother either way.

When we say we are 'hating the sin and loving the sinner' we need to question ourselves very hard.

Is what this person doing really a sin for him or her? Just because it might be for me, it might not be for them.

In confronting this person, am I acting for this person's benefit or am I acting out of self-righteousness, pride, fear, or some other reason?

Is there any danger for me in this situation? If not, then there is no reason to fear, and thus there may be no reason to 'hate the sin'.

I know I keep bringing this back to homosexuality, but again, that is because that issue is the one where I here this phrase used the most. IMV, whether it is a sin or not for all is quite open to debate. Thus, we should be careful about 'hating the sin'. To me it is like hating 'the sin' of someone else eating meat, or refusing to be circumcised, or not being water baptized, or a woman not covering her head in church (as Paul adjoins women to do in several places), etc., etc.

In addition, for a person who is definitely heterosexual, there is really no danger in associating with a homosexual person, as there is really no 'temptation' for most of us who are heterosexual to even consider it. If there is no danger, it does not seem to me we need to say anything at all about sexual preferences. I believer that, as a church body, we should allow homosexuals the same freedom as heterosexuals, and should not enjoin on homosexuals any rules we would not also enjoin on homosexuals.[/i]

[Confused]

Micatala:

How do you rectify that fact that the OT condemned the sinner, and then Christ himself, as "man" condemned the sinners as well?

[melikio]

How do you rectify that fact that the OT condemned the sinner, and then Christ himself, as "man" condemned the sinners as well?

Honestly, I really don't think I can figure it all out.

Even so, there is a MASSIVE difference between "Jesus" bearing down upon someone because of sin, and average-Joe-Christian attempting to do the same.

Jesus was perfect (by biblical standards), people in general aren't. So for people who aren't "Jesus", I believe they need to tone down their attitudes to a significant degree. There are LOTS of people throwing stones in glass houses (and they shouldn't be doing that).

-Mel-

[SpikedLillac]

One day I was talking to an atheist about homosexuals. He made the comment of "I hate homosexuals. You're a Christian and the bible says that homosexuality is wrong so you must hate them too right?" I then commented that did not hate them in any way but that I thought that homosexuality was wrong. My father was gay and I loved him very very much. Right after my parents were divorced he went off with this guy and slept with him. That night he caught HIV. He dealed with the disease for about 19 years, then it turned to AIDS which spread to his brain gave him a stroke and he died. With all my heart I wish that he hadn't have been gay. If he hadn't been, I would still have a father today. My father was a wonderful man but he was gay. I HATE the sin but I loved the sinner.

On the subject of the ER victim. It can be very hard to love someone who decided to beat and bruise your children. When someone came into that Amish school and molested and killed those girls, did their parents show hatred toward the molesters and their families? No. The parents showed love for the families of the molesters. They forgave them. They comforted the families for their loss. One of the hardest things about being a Christian is not to judge or condemn but to love everyone. Jesus said to "love your neighbor as yourself." Period. He said to turn the other cheek and forgive. People may be evil and do bad things but it is not our place to deliver wrath. Now if someone breaks the law then it is the job of the police to arrest and punish because it is their job to enforce that law.

[Confused]

One day I was talking to an atheist about homosexuals. He made the comment of "I hate homosexuals. You're a Christian and the bible says that homosexuality is wrong so you must hate them too right?" I then commented that did not hate them in any way but that I thought that homosexuality was wrong. My father was gay and I loved him very very much. Right after my parents were divorced he went off with this guy and slept with him. That night he caught HIV. He dealed with the disease for about 19 years, then it turned to AIDS which spread to his brain gave him a stroke and he died. With all my heart I wish that he hadn't have been gay. If he hadn't been, I would still have a father today. My father was a wonderful man but he was gay. I HATE the sin but I loved the sinner.

On the subject of the ER victim. It can be very hard to love someone who decided to beat and bruise your children. When someone came into that Amish school and molested and killed those girls, did their parents show hatred toward the molesters and their families? No. The parents showed love for the families of the molesters. They forgave them. They comforted the families for their loss. One of the hardest things about being a Christian is not to judge or condemn but to love everyone. Jesus said to "love your neighbor as yourself." Period. He said to turn the other cheek and forgive. People may be evil and do bad things but it is not our place to deliver wrath. Now if someone breaks the law then it is the job of the police to arrest and punish because it is their job to enforce that law.

I am hoping I am taking the concept of your father being gay and getting AIDS as a result of it the wrong way. It almost sounds like AIDS is his punishment for his sin of being gay. I doubt that is what you meant, but I wanted to be sure.

In regards to the my ER patient and the Amish. The Amish people are better than I could be. But until you have been in that position, I don't know that you can say you would turn the other cheek and forgive. All I did was care for the child until they were transferred to Peds ICU and I wanted to kill the parents myself after seeing the improperly healed fractured ribs,arm bones, finger bones, and the burn that varied from healed and scarred to fresh 3rd degree burns. As I said to John, I hope you are never in the position where you are challenged in this area. I know I would fail. As I said before, it is their sin, they own it. The sin itself can't be evil unless a person commits it. How can you hate a concept? No, I say hate the sin but blame the sinner. I know the OT is riddled with the persecutions of many sinners. The NT, yes Christ says exactly what you say he says. But along his journey, does he also not condemn entire cities in his famous Woe to you in the city of xxx? And if we are to hate the sin but love the sinner and this is what Chirst preached, then how is it that any sinner will go to hell. Shouldn't Christ also hate the sin but love the sinner?