CULTURAL CHRISTIANITY

[William]

Exploring the distinction between cultural identification with Christianity and living according to the teachings of Christ .
viewtopic.php?p=1126768#p1126768
From the link.

otseng. - Do you regularly talk with God and speak the same language with God?
- Is there a difference between how you live and what the Bible commands?
- Do you attend church and in fellowship with a community of believers?
- Do you know anything intimate about God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
- Is there any interaction with God and the church and reaching the lost?
- Do you hide your Christian convictions? Does anybody even know you're a Christian?
- Are you producing any godly fruit in your life?

____________
Reflecting on the Irony of the "Fraudulent Christian" Analogy

I appreciated the thoughtful comparison otseng made between the I-130 process for marriage-based immigration and the concept of being a "bona fide" Christian. It's a striking analogy, and it does bring to light the importance of authenticity, whether in the eyes of the state or within one's spiritual life.
However, as I reflected on this analogy, I found that it opened the door to a larger conversation about the irony inherent in such comparisons, especially when we consider the broader history of Christianity.
If we look at the history of Christianity, particularly in contexts like the founding and expansion of America, we see that many of the methods used by those who called themselves Christians were far from the teachings of Jesus. Christianity, as a political force, was often employed in ways that contradict the very values attributed to Christ—values like humility, peace, and love for one's neighbor.
The acquisition of land through violent conquest, the displacement of Native peoples, and the subsequent production of wealth are examples that don’t align with Jesus' message.

This raises an interesting question: How does one reconcile the analogy of a "fraudulent Christian" with the historical record of Christianity itself? It seems that the term "Christian" became more of a political label than a spiritual one, and in that sense, the use of analogies like this one becomes somewhat ironic. The very institution of Christianity, as history shows, has often acted in ways that could be deemed inauthentic when compared to the teachings of Christ.

Further, it’s worth considering that Jesus never referred to his followers as Christians, nor did he establish the religious identity that later developed around his name. In fact, one might argue that Christianity, as an organized religion, has drifted so far from its original message that those who genuinely wish to follow Jesus' teachings would be better off not identifying as Christians at all.

So while otsengs' analogy makes sense in the context of individual believers, it inadvertently highlights a larger, more complex irony: that the institution of Christianity itself, through its entanglements with power and politics, could be seen as the very definition of a "fraudulent" representation of Christ's message.

Perhaps it's worth reflecting on how these contradictions play out, not only in the history of Christianity but also in the way the faith is practiced today. Does the modern-day Christian identity align with the simplicity and integrity of Jesus' original teachings? Or has it been shaped more by political and cultural forces that, over time, have distorted its core message?

Question for debate.

Are the majority of people who identify as Christians actually 'Cultural Christians,' and if so, are they at risk of being judged as 'fraudulent' by the very standards outlined in Matthew 7:21-23?

[William]

... Is discipleship really about carrying the label "Christian," or is it about embodying Jesus’ teachings, regardless of what history has attached to the term?

The real question might be: would Jesus view this individual or group as among his genuine followers?

That’s an interesting question, but it seems to shift away from the main point I was raising. My question was about whether discipleship is truly about carrying the label "Christian" (including any of all of the Christian denominations) or about embodying Jesus' teachings, regardless of the historical baggage attached to that term. What matters more in discipleship: the label (Catholic, Jehovah's Witness et al) or the lived practice of Jesus' values?

In the first century, the term "Christian" was reserved for true followers of Jesus. Using this term in any other context is not relevant, IMHO.

As Jehovah's Witnesses, we hold that the term was employed in alignment with God's will for a distinct purpose.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

While the historical use of the term "Christian" may be important, it doesn’t quite address the question I was asking. My focus is more on the idea of discipleship itself—whether being a disciple of Jesus is about identifying with a particular label or group (like "Christian" or "Jehovah’s Witness") or about genuinely living out the values that Jesus taught, regardless of those labels.

In the present day, we see so many different denominations and interpretations under the Christian label, which raises the question: Is the label really what matters most in discipleship, or is it the lived practice of Jesus' teachings?
________________________________________

[Bible_Student]

... Is discipleship really about carrying the label "Christian," or is it about embodying Jesus’ teachings, regardless of what history has attached to the term?

The real question might be: would Jesus view this individual or group as among his genuine followers?

That’s an interesting question, but it seems to shift away from the main point I was raising. My question was about whether discipleship is truly about carrying the label "Christian" (including any of all of the Christian denominations) or about embodying Jesus' teachings, regardless of the historical baggage attached to that term. What matters more in discipleship: the label (Catholic, Jehovah's Witness et al) or the lived practice of Jesus' values?

In the first century, the term "Christian" was reserved for true followers of Jesus. Using this term in any other context is not relevant, IMHO.

As Jehovah's Witnesses, we hold that the term was employed in alignment with God's will for a distinct purpose.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

While the historical use of the term "Christian" may be important, it doesn’t quite address the question I was asking. My focus is more on the idea of discipleship itself—whether being a disciple of Jesus is about identifying with a particular label or group (like "Christian" or "Jehovah’s Witness") or about genuinely living out the values that Jesus taught, regardless of those labels.

In the present day, we see so many different denominations and interpretations under the Christian label, which raises the question: Is the label really what matters most in discipleship, or is it the lived practice of Jesus' teachings?
________________________________________

I concur with that sentiment and have thus added the following comment:

When Jesus refers to "abiding in his word," he means much more than simply aligning with the principles he highlighted.

His words encompass beliefs he presented as truths, like the identity of his Father in heaven and their mutual relationship, as well as prophecies he declared as certain, such as the coming day of judgment for humanity () and a kingdom that would improve conditions for the humble (). Additionally, there were directives about further actions to take (), like spreading his teachings and baptizing new followers in his name ().

There are many more elements implied in Jesus' "words" that define those who follow them as "Christians." To be a genuine Christian, it's essential to consider each of these aspects comprehensively.

Being a Christian is much more than just a culture.

... “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

We now have to await the day of judgment to truly understand what Jesus believes about how his so-called modern followers, whether alone or in groups, perceived the essence of being a true Christian.

[POI]

We now have to await the day of judgment to truly understand what Jesus believes about how his so-called modern followers, whether alone or in groups, perceived the essence of being a true Christian.

But you've made your choice. You chose to follow Watchtower doctrine. Do you really think Jesus approves of shunning practices? If you truly do not know, then why follow this practice in the first place?

[William]

... Is discipleship really about carrying the label "Christian," or is it about embodying Jesus’ teachings, regardless of what history has attached to the term?

The real question might be: would Jesus view this individual or group as among his genuine followers?

That’s an interesting question, but it seems to shift away from the main point I was raising. My question was about whether discipleship is truly about carrying the label "Christian" (including any of all of the Christian denominations) or about embodying Jesus' teachings, regardless of the historical baggage attached to that term. What matters more in discipleship: the label (Catholic, Jehovah's Witness et al) or the lived practice of Jesus' values?

In the first century, the term "Christian" was reserved for true followers of Jesus. Using this term in any other context is not relevant, IMHO.

As Jehovah's Witnesses, we hold that the term was employed in alignment with God's will for a distinct purpose.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

While the historical use of the term "Christian" may be important, it doesn’t quite address the question I was asking. My focus is more on the idea of discipleship itself—whether being a disciple of Jesus is about identifying with a particular label or group (like "Christian" or "Jehovah’s Witness") or about genuinely living out the values that Jesus taught, regardless of those labels.

In the present day, we see so many different denominations and interpretations under the Christian label, which raises the question: Is the label really what matters most in discipleship, or is it the lived practice of Jesus' teachings?
________________________________________

I concur with that sentiment and have thus added the following comment:

When Jesus refers to "abiding in his word," he means much more than simply aligning with the principles he highlighted.

His words encompass beliefs he presented as truths, like the identity of his Father in heaven and their mutual relationship, as well as prophecies he declared as certain, such as the coming day of judgment for humanity () and a kingdom that would improve conditions for the humble (). Additionally, there were directives about further actions to take (), like spreading his teachings and baptizing new followers in his name ().

There are many more elements implied in Jesus' "words" that define those who follow them as "Christians." To be a genuine Christian, it's essential to consider each of these aspects comprehensively.

Being a Christian is much more than just a culture.

... “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

We now have to await the day of judgment to truly understand what Jesus believes about how his so-called modern followers, whether alone or in groups, perceived the essence of being a true Christian.

Thanks for your response and for elaborating on your view. I agree that Jesus’ words encompass a range of teachings, including truths, prophecies, and directives. However, this raises the question of how we live those teachings today.

Is it enough to align with doctrinal beliefs and await the day of judgment, or is discipleship about embodying Jesus' teachings—his values of love, humility, and service—right now, in our daily lives?

As we’ve seen throughout history, many have carried the label "Christian" while participating in acts far removed from those core values. This is why I think it’s important to focus not on the label but on the lived practice of Jesus' teachings.

The day of judgment may come, but what truly defines a disciple today, in the here and now, is how we live according to Jesus' example.

So, the question remains: Is discipleship about adhering to a doctrinal understanding of Jesus' words, or is it more about embodying his values in our everyday actions, regardless of labels?

[Bible_Student]

@William, your concern has been acknowledged.

So, what's next? What actions are you taking? Is there a message you'd like to share globally to make a difference?

Do you see yourself as a genuine "Christian"?

I'm unclear about your personal motivation for persisting, or if you anticipate a particular reply.

The guidance you seek can certainly be found in Jesus' teachings. He mentions that the meek will inherit the earth, so it would benefit everyone to strive to follow his teachings.

Wishing you a wonderful day.

[POI]

So, the question remains: Is discipleship about adhering to a doctrinal understanding of Jesus' words, or is it more about embodying his values in our everyday actions, regardless of labels?

Followed by:

Would you agree that, given this complexity, it’s often better to take a step back rather than engage in debates that seem to go in circles?

[Bible_Student]

It is Jesus Christ, and no other, who will judge the world. Therefore, openly declaring oneself as a follower of Jesus is crucial for salvation.

Clearly, identifying as a Christian, as has been reiterated many times, entails more than merely having that label.

  “Everyone, then, who acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father who is in the heavens. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens.

[POI]

@William, your concern has been acknowledged.

So, what's next? What actions are you taking? Is there a message you'd like to share globally to make a difference?

Do you see yourself as a genuine "Christian"?

I'm unclear about your personal motivation for persisting, or if you anticipate a particular reply.

The guidance you seek can certainly be found in Jesus' teachings. He mentions that the meek will inherit the earth, so it would benefit everyone to strive to follow his teachings.

Wishing you a wonderful day.

No one is twisting your arm to be here. This is a debate forum arena. If you care not to be pressed in any way, then may I suggest to spend your time elsewhere.

Your continued red herrings and blatant avoidance of direct questions will earn you no converts. The bottom line is you have chosen to follow a specific doctrine. A doctrine in which you assume aligns with Jesus's teaching. This doctrine includes shunning and refusing lifesaving treatment(s). I'm no mind reader, but it would be safe to say such a Jesus would not be on board with such doctrinal practices.

Please be advised that you are in a debate arena. If you care not to engage, then please stop wasting everyone's time.

[Bible_Student]

No one is twisting your arm to be here. This is a debate forum arena. If you care not to be pressed in any way, then may I suggest to spend your time elsewhere.

Your continued red herrings and blatant avoidance of direct questions will earn you no converts. The bottom line is you have chosen to follow a specific doctrine. A doctrine in which you assume aligns with Jesus's teaching. This doctrine includes shunning and refusing lifesaving treatment(s). I'm no mind reader, but it would be safe to say such a Jesus would not be on board with such doctrinal practices.

Please be advised that you are in a debate arena. If you care not to engage, then please stop wasting everyone's time.

???

I'm not sure about this specific issue of yours.

Have I already wished you a fantastic day?

[POI]

No one is twisting your arm to be here. This is a debate forum arena. If you care not to be pressed in any way, then may I suggest to spend your time elsewhere.

Your continued red herrings and blatant avoidance of direct questions will earn you no converts. The bottom line is you have chosen to follow a specific doctrine. A doctrine in which you assume aligns with Jesus's teaching. This doctrine includes shunning and refusing lifesaving treatment(s). I'm no mind reader, but it would be safe to say such a Jesus would not be on board with such doctrinal practices.

Please be advised that you are in a debate arena. If you care not to engage, then please stop wasting everyone's time.

???

I'm not sure about this specific issue of yours.

Have I already wished you a fantastic day?

??????

Yes, your avoidance to repeated direct question(s) has been noted. The specific doctrine you have chosen endorses 1) shunning and 2) the refusal of lifesaving treatment. Are these practices in line with Jesus? Maybe so, since he also is okay with slavery.