Saved by the Grace of God???

[Confused]

So, this has always perplexed me and I am hoping someone might actually be able to give me a clear and concise explanation. Often, we hear of events that lead to the death of one or more people, yet the survivors are quoted as saying things such as "It was only by the grace of God that I stand here today". Now, to me, this implies the person is somehow more important than those who died. Yet if we are all created equal, then no life is greater than another. Often serial killers murder 3+ people, but the last one gets away which leads to the arrest and conviction of the killer. The survivor, once again, attests to the grace of God being the reason they are alive to tell the story. How does this coincide with this God of the bible?

So for debate:
1) What is the grace of God? Is there some rational reason why some get it and some don't? What does it mean to be saved by the Grace of God?
2) Does the God in the bible really offer grace? Or does He merely offer suffering in this life for eternal rewards in the next?

(Please, if you can't creatively answer this, don't use the generic "God works in mysterious ways".)

[joer]

Hi Confused. Good to post with you!

So how do we know it is the Will of God and not the Temptation of Satan? Aside from that, I still don't understand the "Grace of God". If it is within us, then how can so many of us not find it?

You have a basic instinct within you that’s lets you know what is right and wrong. You look for exceptions or alternative explanations to this basic understanding of right and wrong we are born with BUT it’s really probably much more amazing that it exists at all. What makes us want to do good in most instances? (The grace of God within us.)
“then how can so many of us not find it “, because we are focused on the exceptions rather than the Rule. (It exists within us)

I also fail to understand how one can say "I was saved by the Grace of God" while there 2 year old was burned to death in a house fire. How does this make sense?

You are exactly right Confused. It would make much more sense to be mourning the loss of your 2 year old. And the grace of god would most likely be expressed by those who tried to comfort the person who sustained the loss.
M't:5:4: Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

But what is the "Grace of God". I understand the examples you are trying to get across. But they don't really define the "Grace of God", rather, they say that because of X, therfore Y with Y being the Grace of God.

O.K. let me try something else. Someone shared this with me today: This guy named David Jeremiah wrote the book, "Captured by Grace". In it on page 170 he says, “Paul explains to Titus that the grace of God has appeared. The Greek word translated “appeared” gives us our modern word epiphany----a wonderful word. We use it in a secular way to describe a sudden and intense realization of truth.” So “seeing” grace, is an epiphany that may be the light that allows those who can’t “see” the opportunity to “see”. On the inner flap of the book it says, “As Pastor David Jeremiah parallels the lost-to-found journeys of the writer of “Amazing Grace” and the biblical preacher (Paul), he gives you new eyes to see the grace that surrounds you even now and beckons you by name."

Are you familiar with those two stories Confused? Excellent examples of the epiphany that besets the onset of the recognition of Grace and the contrast between the before and after type of Life one leads with Grace after it’s encounter and without Grace before it’s encounter. Would you like me to mention them a little as an example? Grace is not defined in words, it’s defined in actions.

I also don't understand how someone can say they were saved by the "Grace of God" while countless others were decimated. This is grace?

I hear what you’re saying Confused. It certainly sounds like they lack compassion by overlooking the tragedy that befell others while they escaped with their lives. The grace is the compassion that is shone by so many in trying to help in what ever way they can those who we’re affected by the tragedy, like the help offered by so many to the families of victims of the Twin Towers collapse. Grace is the response to those who we’re impelled by something within them to go to the fallen towers to help in what ever way they could. Grace is the fact of belief that those decimated in their physical form will live again in a more durable and more graceful spiritual form.

Good Will to you Confused.

This poem always reminded me of my Grandma and Grandpa now buried in Idaho.

May the Trail rise up to meet you
May the Wind be always at your back
May the Sun shine warm upon your face
The Snow fall soft on the plain around you
And until we meet again
May GOD hold you in the hollow of HIS hand.

This poem sort of softly reminds me of the naturally warm and loving grace of God.
My grandmother loved that song "Amazing Grace". I only found out the moving story of it's author a year or so ago.

MY grandmother has a perpetual light by her final resting place in a family cemetery on their favorite spot overlooking the St. Joe River. Amid pine covered mountains on both sides. A neighbor who lived on the property next to the family plot got caught far from home in the mountains in a blizzard packing a mountain lion out. In complete darkness at night knowing not which way to go. Realizing he could easily freeze that night, he saw that light as he crossed a ridge trying to find his way home. He told me the story as the same feelings of "grace" with tears welling in his eyes overcame him as they did when he saw that "saving light."

Often times Confused, the saving value of the Grace isn't that they escaped death, it's that they are forever changed as they live a new life in a very new and profound way. They are changed from within. Ask them.

[jamesearl]

1) What is the grace of God? Is there some rational reason why some get it and some don't? What does it mean to be saved by the Grace of God?

Oh, its easy.
The grace of God is when 100 people gets killed in a plance crash, but one small girl survives. Thats, the grace of God.....

2) Does the God in the bible really offer grace? Or does He merely offer suffering in this life for eternal rewards in the next?

See answer above. My evidence is plentiful if you see the worlds accidents and tragics, you will notice several people survive. Evidence, is plentiful.

[Fallibleone]

Hi, joer.

fallibleone wrote:

“I wonder why he keeps his plan so secret. Wow, you can see why some people think there is no plan, can't you. Can't you?”

Fallibleone, my 19 year old daughter, Sara, mentioned to me that she noticed that her 17 year old sister April really loves her. She said she knew April said it all the time but the other day Sara REALLY SAW IT.

Can I first say that I absolutely see what you're driving at. In my opinion, however, your above anecdote differs from the idea of God's plan. Your daughters have, I am assuming, lived together since the youngest was born. Every day they are aware of the existence of the other, via sight, sound, smell and touch. Already we have a difference. I am aware that many Christians claim to be able to see God at work in their everyday lives. I am not aware that any of them claim to have God as a guest in the spare room, physically interacting with them, using their bathroom and drinking all the milk. Sarah was already in receipt of several vocal declarations of her sister's love. I would like to ask what led to Sarah's realisation that her sister really did love her.

She also noticed her 20 year friend Edwin was REALLY BIG and SHY and nervous around her. In their 4-year friend ship she had never noticed that before. I told her that it is REALLY NEAT (cool) when we SEE things in a new way. They have always been there but we haven't seen them. And then when you SEE them, you wonder why you never noticed it that way before.

Again, I sense a difference here. Your daughter's friend Edwin had been a friend for four years. A human friend, and a 'REALLY BIG' one at that. Tangible. It is indeed sometimes neat when we see things in a new way. There was a craze here a few years ago for pictures which on the surface appeared to be composed entirely of dots and squiggles, but which concealed within them another 'secret' picture if you looked at them differently.

I told her it will be like THAT when she REALLY SEES GOD in the world around her. She'll be amazed and wonder why she hadn't seen it before.

Or she might never really see God in the world around her. I never have, and I have looked. One reason for this could be that he is deliberately concealing himself. Why would he do that? Another reason for this could be that he's not there. Do you tell her that? How can you be sure that she will ever find him, given that many have not?

It was a really good thing for her to become aware of that because she has been so worried much of her life about how other people see her she hasn't really allowed herself to see them. So this new perception she had the other day is very important in her development of her own self esteem and self confidence and self knowledge and beginning to trust her OWN perceptions instead of relying on other's perceptions of her.

I could not agree more that it is harmful to only see oneself as one appears in the eyes of others. I too used to be overly concerned about what other people thought of me until I realised that it was making me miserable, and that this in turn led to me being frightened/mistrustful/dismissive of others. This is a valid argument whichever theological perspective you look at it from.

I mention this Fallibleone because God’s Plan is all around us and through and through us because WE (you and I and the rest of us here) are PART OF THE PLAN. The plan isn’t secret. It’s as plain as the nose on your face. And if for some reason you don’t have a nose, it’s as plain as the essence of your being, the same essence of everything that exists.

I appreciate the enthusiasm with which you express yourself. However, it has yet to be determined whether there is even a God in existence, let alone whether or not he has a plan. There is an assumption made that the plan is not secret, that it is plain. If it is plain, why do I not see it? I can see the dinosaur in that picture just fine, because I possess the ability to look differently. But I can see God nowhere.

And when you “SEE IT” nothing will have changed, the world will still be the world, you will still be you, BUT you’ll never “SEE IT” the way you used to. Because you can’t unlearn what you have learned. You can’t un-“SEE” what you have finally “SEEN.” When you “SEE IT” you will be amazed. You’ll never “SEE” the world the same again. It will forever be changed and forever will you SEE GOD IN IT AND YOU.

Where did you learn that eventually I will see God? Many never do.

And that is the Grace of God....being in everything that exists and existing in everything of "being".

So yes of course many can't see it. But it's not because it's secret. It's because they don't know how to "SEE YET". There are hundreds of examples in life where we fail to see something that is right in front of us. It's not uncommon. It fact it's common. The problem is our failure to learn to open up our perspectives to allow more meaning and understanding in. As we do with age and experience we gain WISDOM, And with that, the capacity to "see things" in various lights.

Enjoy. It’s all in your perception. “YOU’LL SEE”.

Ahhh. I'm too naive to see it. I'm not looking properly. I'm too young. I don't know how to do it. My mind is not open. Please explain to me how my father, for example, missed it too, being 74 years old and having lived a large portion of his life as a religious man, and yet you for some reason have this ability to see God's plan absolutely everywhere. Are you better, more clever, more perceptive? It was my father's open mind which enabled him to see past the religious indoctrination of his parents and consider other possibilities.

Indeed we do often fail to see things which are in front of our noses. I have often mislaid my house keys only to eventually find them right in the centre of the room I have just spent the past hour searching from top to bottom. But my house keys are tangible. I can see them, touch them, hear them, even smell the faint metallic scent of them. If I wanted to, I could taste them. I can't do any of these things with God's plan. You can see why some people think there is no plan, can't you.

[Vanguard]

Great! Thanks for nothing, F-bone! I can't see the flippin' dinosaur if my life depended on it! I'll now be consigned to staring at this object all day until I too can see it! I wonder if that's what hell is?

[Fallibleone]

Oops sorry (You're obviously not looking properly. )!

[joer]

Great! Thanks for nothing, F-bone! I can't see the flippin' dinosaur if my life depended on it! I'll now be consigned to staring at this object all day until I too can see it! I wonder if that's what hell is?

Fallibleone wrote:

Oops sorry (You're obviously not looking properly. )!

The dinosaur in the picture is a good example. It's there but some people will never see it and others can see it easily. And the more you look at those kinds of pictures looking for what's hidden within that's always been there, the better you get at seeing them.

The thing is Fallibleone as know it's not because your not looking right. It's not because one person is better than the other, (although your Father was probably turned off by all those WHO erroneously DID think they were better them him), because we're all the same. There's something else involved in seeing the image within the pattern.

Whatever that something else is and however we describe it, some people with your efforts to help them see it, will see it others won't. If they don't see doesn't mean it's not there. They'll never convince the people who do "see it" that it's not there.

There's never anything WRONG with the seers and the non-seers. They just have differing perspectives because of their experiences.

Maybe if we focused on the epiphanies, The point where one "sees' Grace or God or where one Rejects the existence of Grace or God. In examining that experience perhaps we can fin a key or several keys. As why "one will see" and "one will not see."

Anyway hope you both have an excellent day!

[dissenter719]

The dinosaur in the picture is a good example. It's there but some people will never see it and others can see it easily. And the more you look at those kinds of pictures looking for what's hidden within that's always been there, the better you get at seeing them.

The thing is Fallibleone as know it's not because your not looking right. It's not because one person is better than the other, (although your Father was probably turned off by all those WHO erroneously DID think they were better them him), because we're all the same. There's something else involved in seeing the image within the pattern.

Whatever that something else is and however we describe it, some people with your efforts to help them see it, will see it others won't. If they don't see doesn't mean it's not there. They'll never convince the people who do "see it" that it's not there.

There's never anything WRONG with the seers and the non-seers. They just have differing perspectives because of their experiences.

Maybe if we focused on the epiphanies, The point where one "sees' Grace or God or where one Rejects the existence of Grace or God. In examining that experience perhaps we can fin a key or several keys. As why "one will see" and "one will not see."

Anyway hope you both have an excellent day!

Is the dinosaur (I thought it was a kangaroo) really a good example? The "Grace of God" allows some to see the image while others cannot? God has time to waste on 3D pictures, but not famine. Well, that certainly sucks.

Actually, if one can see the image, it's because s/he possesses a knowledge and skill to focus or refocus the eyes in a particular way. If knowledge and skill make one person 'better' than another, then it is about being better or right or whatever term is preferred.

So then the "Grace of God" is basic knowledge and understanding, and those who possess it are somehow 'better' than those who don't? Seems like it can't be one without the other.

[Fallibleone]

Great! Thanks for nothing, F-bone! I can't see the flippin' dinosaur if my life depended on it! I'll now be consigned to staring at this object all day until I too can see it! I wonder if that's what hell is?

Fallibleone wrote:

Oops sorry (You're obviously not looking properly. )!

The dinosaur in the picture is a good example. It's there but some people will never see it and others can see it easily. And the more you look at those kinds of pictures looking for what's hidden within that's always been there, the better you get at seeing them.

So which is it? 'It's there but some people will never see it', or 'the more you look at those kinds of pictures...the better you get at seeing them'?

If I were to tell you that the picture above contained a hidden dinosaur but no matter how hard you tried you just couldn't see it, would you believe me? Do those who cannot see the dinosaur believe me when I say there is one there?

The thing is Fallibleone as know it's not because your not looking right.
It's not because one person is better than the other, (although your Father was probably turned off by all those WHO erroneously DID think they were better them him), because we're all the same.
There's something else involved in seeing the image within the pattern.

Yes, that's correct. One must gaze without really looking, as though one is staring off into space, mind empty, eyes unfocussed.

Whatever that something else is and however we describe it, some people with your efforts to help them see it, will see it others won't. If they don't see doesn't mean it's not there.

Or that it is.

They'll never convince the people who do "see it" that it's not there.

I for one would never wish to convince someone that God's plan is not there. I believe it isn't, and what I object to is others trying to convince me that it is. Those who believe they see it may finally realise they don't on their own. I believe it does happen.

There's never anything WRONG with the seers and the non-seers. They just have differing perspectives because of their experiences.

I agree they have different perspectives. Where one person sees God's plan, another does not. I believe that the stance taken does not really have anything to do with the reality of God's plan, but more to do with the perspective of the viewer.

Maybe if we focused on the epiphanies, The point where one "sees' Grace or God or where one Rejects the existence of Grace or God. In examining that experience perhaps we can fin a key or several keys. As why "one will see" and "one will not see."

Some never experience epiphanies either way. What of those who neither see God nor reject God? What of those who continue to look but never see? What about the key to why 'one simply does not see' as opposed to 'will not see'?

Anyway hope you both have an excellent day! [/quote]

You too.

[rusty]

Please allow me to give this a try, although I may be a little too simplistic.

First, the grace of God for the Christian is, "Although I was born ignorant, God has offered me wisdom. I did not deserve wisdom, but it was freely offered, anyway."
ALSO, "Although I was a sinner deserving death, God has offered me life. I did not deserve life, but it was freely offered, anyway." God, by His grace and not by our own "worthiness," has offered misguided selfish man salvation. God, by His LOVE and not by our own "worthiness," has offered misguided selfish man salvation.

Applying the "grace of God" to the lone survivor of a plane crash is just one of the goofy things people say.

Now, after quickly reading through the posts on this thread, I got the feeling that the discussion turned into what God is doing, what is His plan, and why are things seemingly so unfair? Why can't we all "see" equally what God wants us to see?--------For the true Christians, the question is, "What does God want me to do, now that I have accepted His free offer of life?" There is joy in serving God. There is joy in leaving behind error. There is joy in loving my family. There is joy in loving my neighbor. (I only wish I had more neighbors who wish to share this joy with me!)

Why question what God does? We have no control of God, why not focus on what He wants to help us do? When we conduct ourselves wisely and lovingly many wonderful things happen. Let God's word be your guide. Let others do what they want to do. BUT, WOW! IT WOULD BE GREAT IF MORE NEIGHBORS WANTED TO SERVE GOD!

There is a lot of great stuff in the four gospels, but I can't write it all here. I'l leave with what I have written.

"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." It is easier to see God by doing His instruction.
rusty

[Beto]

Yes, that's correct. One must gaze without really looking, as though one is staring off into space, mind empty, eyes unfocussed.

Trying to look "behind" the picture also helps, I think.