Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[sevensealscom]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None

Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

You,ve had answers, but didn't believed the answers to be what you call accurate, honest or true. After eight years of wasting your time and energy, you should stop lying.

Every religious person that believes in God and salvation and everlasting life in paradise should just do as Zzyzx has been saying, even though he says the same thing over and over, and just stop your believing in God, salvation, and everlasting life, and instead believe in Zzyzx who is offering you nothing from his vision of nothingness. How many has Zzyzx convinced in 8 years, nothing. He's the non God believing, non salvation hoping, non after life attaining person of nothingness. Nothing minus Nothing= Nothing. Einstein would possibly have a formula for the equation of Nothingness.

[Zzyzx]

.
[Replying to post 301 by sevensealscom]

Thank you for supplying readers with a religionist response (or non-response, or rant, or whatever it is) in what is to be honorable and reasoned debate. If my intent was to expose negativity, anger and hostility hiding behind or within religion, that would appear to have been successful.

After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

1) Jesus was anything more than human? None

2) Humans possess a soul? None

3) An afterlife exists? None

4) Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

5) Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

6) God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

7) Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None

Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

You,ve had answers, but didn't believed the answers to be what you call accurate, honest or true.

WHAT answers (with verifiable evidence) have been supplied? Kindly quote replies (with URL) -- or supply them yourself -- for any or all of the above numbered questions. Or admit that no such thing has been presented.

After eight years of wasting your time and energy, you should stop lying.

Kindly show readers the "lies" to which you refer – with quotations and URL. That is a rather serious accusation – which requires substantiation.

Every religious person that believes in God and salvation and everlasting life in paradise should just do as Zzyzx has been saying,

Agreed – Zzyzx encourages ALL people, religious or not, to base decisions on the widest available and best information – and upon sound reasoning (not emotion or indoctrination).

even though he says the same thing over and over, and just stop your believing in God, salvation, and everlasting life,

Astute readers know from experience that Zzyzx has NEVER said to stop believing in any of the proposed "gods" or supernatural spirits (or fairies, or leprechauns, or unicorns, or whatever they like).

What individuals choose to accept or believe is none of my business. What they CLAIM to KNOW about "gods" in public debate is open to challenge (much to the chagrin of those accustomed to encountering no strong opposition on a level playing field).

Many Apologists become angry, hostile and abusive when their claims and stories are challenged in honorable and reasoned debate. Some resort to disreputable tactics rather than even attempting to debate honorably.

and instead believe in Zzyzx who is offering you nothing from his vision of nothingness.

Zzyzx is not selling anything or asking anyone to believe anything.

How many has Zzyzx convinced in 8 years, nothing.

Interesting – a person who has been a member for less than a month knows what has occurred (or not occurred) for the preceding 100 months – amazing supernatural feat (or a lot of hot air and emotionalism).

He's the non God believing, non salvation hoping, non after life attaining person

That much is right. I do not believe tales about any of the thousands of proposed "gods", or any of the "afterlife" tales. There is nothing which I hope-for, need or want in the proposed / hypothetical / imaginary "salvation". I am not intimidated or fearful of tales that cannot be shown to be anything more than products of human imagination.

of nothingness.

It may be difficult for some religionists to comprehend that rejection of their god tales does not equate to "nothingness" – and that there may be more substance in Non-Believers than Believers are equipped to recognize.

Many seem quite upset by "I don't believe your god tales" and "I won't take your word for anything or his or this book", or "Show me the evidence don't just tell me stories from ancient (or modern) books".

Nothing minus Nothing= Nothing.

Ancient god tales + modern god tales = nothing verifiable – just testimonials, folklore, legend, fables, opinions, conjecture, imagination and/or various literary devices (poetry, parables, allegory, metaphor, and or fiction and fantasy).

Einstein would possibly have a formula for the equation of Nothingness.

Interesting citation of Einstein – a Non-Christian who said:

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

BTW, is the "end of the world" scheduled for 2019?

[Elijah John]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None

Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

You,ve had answers, but didn't believed the answers to be what you call accurate, honest or true. After eight years of wasting your time and energy, you should stop lying.

Every religious person that believes in God and salvation and everlasting life in paradise should just do as Zzyzx has been saying, even though he says the same thing over and over, and just stop your believing in God, salvation, and everlasting life, and instead believe in Zzyzx who is offering you nothing from his vision of nothingness. How many has Zzyzx convinced in 8 years, nothing. He's the non God believing, non salvation hoping, non after life attaining person of nothingness. Nothing minus Nothing= Nothing. Einstein would possibly have a formula for the equation of Nothingness.

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[puddleglum]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

God gives proof to all who are willing to obey him. Jesus said, "If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority." Those who know the truth and don't obey it will receive a greater punishment than those who don't know the truth. Perhaps God know you would not obey even if you did see evidence and he is showing mercy to you by not revealing to you things that would only lead to a greater condemnation.

[beeswax]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

God gives proof to all who are willing to obey him. Jesus said, "If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority." Those who know the truth and don't obey it will receive a greater punishment than those who don't know the truth. Perhaps God know you would not obey even if you did see evidence and he is showing mercy to you by not revealing to you things that would only lead to a greater condemnation.

Can we just examine what you said there..

Question; Exactly what IS God's will?

How would anyone know what that was before Christ and since when ordinary people either could not read or have a bible written in their language?

What IS the truth?

What needs to be obeyed by anyone that just lives their lives as the best they can do for themselves, their families and their neighbours? Obey the laws of the land and give to charity and basically the golden rule?

What else would ANY God, any Parent, any Government expect more than that?

Greater punishment will be inflicted hey? What for just doing that above?

Can Christians really believe what they write or read when put to that test? I don't think they do although there are many people that will delight in seeing ordinary people suffer in eternal hell because they didn't believe in what they believed.

On the other hand, logic and reason defeats all this nonsense, immediately. I wish people would just stop putting words into the mouth of God or Creator based on stone age biblical writers who wanted power and control over others OR ELSE!

Can you not see why they did that? ie Join our cult, as all others lead to condemnation and eternal punishment by God. A pretty powerful message to the ignorant, innocent and illiterate population. It should all be outlawed as dangerous indoctrination.

[Zzyzx]

.

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

God gives proof to all who are willing to obey him.

If someone became convinced that Fairies created the world and its contents they could find "proof" wherever they looked -- "There is a tree, Fairies did it, that proves Fairies exist" or "Fairies predicted there would be wars and there are wars so Fairies know the future" or "I have this book about Fairies that tells all about them and whatever the book says must be true because I believe it."

However, when asked to show actual, verifiable evidence that Fairies exist or create or predict, there is no verifiable evidence presented -- only "Take my word for it, or his or this book."

How are tales about gods any more valid?

Jesus said, "If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority."

If Jesus actually said those words he was saying the same as above -- believe and you will believe.

Those who know the truth and don't obey it will receive a greater punishment than those who don't know the truth. Perhaps God know you would not obey even if you did see evidence and he is showing mercy to you by not revealing to you things that would only lead to a greater condemnation.

Perhaps that is an example of great imagination used to "support" god beliefs.

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 293 by Realworldjack]

What evidence would convince you of the truth of another religion's scriptures? How much evidence would you need to determine that the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon, or the Guru Granth Sahib was true?

That's how much evidence it would take to convince a non-Christian that the Bible is true.

And what evidence will it take to convince you that after 1466 posts in a little over 18 months, you have achieved nothing and convinced no one who wasn't already convinced. I'll give you some evidence why you should throw the towel in when what you say is like a broken record that keeps repeating itself.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein, (attributed).

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[sevensealscom]

[Replying to post 302 by Zzyzx]

Kindly show readers the "lies" to which you refer – with quotations and URL. That is a rather serious accusation – which requires substantiation.

Here is your lies.
You Zzyzx said "After eight years debating here {on this forum} I {Zzyzx} have YET {still haven't after eight years} to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)"

let's see, you said that after eight years of debating (with defenders of fundamentalism/literalism/traditionalism), not one of them (which is hard to believe) was being open, accurate, or honest about their Christian beliefs, including other questions you asked. So you know for a fact that not one debater was open, accurate, and honest because you can read their minds. If you can't read minds then you're assumptions are making you out to be a liar. Why wouldn't most Christians be open, accurate, and honest regarding their belief/religion?

[Zzyzx]

.

Kindly show readers the "lies" to which you refer – with quotations and URL. That is a rather serious accusation – which requires substantiation.

Here is your lies.
You Zzyzx said "After eight years debating here {on this forum} I {Zzyzx} have YET {still haven't after eight years} to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)"

let's see, you said that after eight years of debating (with defenders of fundamentalism/literalism/traditionalism), not one of them (which is hard to believe) was being open, accurate, or honest about their Christian beliefs, including other questions you asked.

CORRECTION: I clearly stated I have not encountered defenders . . . who ". . . openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following".

That is MY experience – stated truthfully, openly, accurately and honestly.

So you know for a fact that not one debater was open, accurate, and honest because you can read their minds.

CORRECTION: I do not pretend to read anyone's mind. Instead I clearly stated that the questions were NOT answered – not that I knew what anyone may have been thinking.

I hereby challenge YOU to answer them openly, accurately and honestly.

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human?

Humans possess a soul?

An afterlife exists?

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred?

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described?

God intercedes in human affairs or life events?

Bible writers were actually inspired by God?

Go ahead and show readers that I am wrong . . . answer the questions. Present the verifiable evidence that exists for each of them. Don't just dance and flail around making wild accusations of "lying" – answer the questions.

If you can't read minds then you're assumptions are making you out to be a liar.

WHAT assumptions have I stated?

Why wouldn't most Christians be open, accurate, and honest regarding their belief/religion?

I do not pretend to know why anyone would or would not openly, accurately and honestly answer fundamental questions about the religious belief system they claim or promote.

However, if the honest answer to those questions is "NONE" (as I suggest), that would be acknowledgment that Bible stories upon which Christianity is based cannot be shown with verifiable evidence to be true – and if so, the religion itself cannot be shown to be based on truth.

I also observe that many "Defenders of the Faith" apparently become frustrated, angry, hostile and abusive – often violating Forum Rules to the extent that they predominate the list of people placed on Probation, Suspension or Banishment (verified by http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 42013eb365 ) A Final Warning is indication that one will join them unless they learn to debate civilly and honorably without further rule infractions.

[sevensealscom]

I hereby challenge YOU to answer them openly, accurately and honestly.

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human?

Humans possess a soul?

An afterlife exists?

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred?

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described?

God intercedes in human affairs or life events?

Bible writers were actually inspired by God?

Go ahead and show readers that I am wrong . . . answer the questions. Present the verifiable evidence that exists for each of them.

Ok. let's play.

Question 1) Jesus was anything more than human?

This one is easy for me to answer because I believe he was as 100% human as you and I, so nothing to prove or disprove here.

Question 2) Humans possess a soul?

Humans are a soul. For instance, a body and its spirit equal a soul. Soul just means person. But you are probably asking whether humans possess a spirit. A spirit is referring to something that isn't physical. In your DNA that makes up your body, it also has the DNA of your spirit that you inherited from either of your parents or their lineage (reincarnation if you like). You inherit a spirit just like you inherit other physical features, ailments, and talents/abilities from either of your parents and/or from their lineage.
What is a spirit? It's your mind. For instance, the way my mind accepts things is different from the way someone else's mind accepts things. Their are individuals of like-minded. Also your upbringing, surroundings, life experiences,etc also influence your mind's thoughts. For example, there are Atheists that went to a religious based school that caused them to be so put off by Christianity, that they want absolutely nothing to do with the bungling God, the fables of the Bible, or anyone relating to the bible. Yet their were other minds (spirits) in that same school who went on to join the church to become a church father/pastor to preach of God, the Bible, and Jesus.

Question 3) An afterlife exists?

Well, there are actual video and photographic proof of house hauntings, Ghosts appearing and disappearing, and all sorts of unusual phenomena caught on video and camera. Check this website http://paranormal.about.com/od/ghostsandhauntings/ that has live video feed that captures hauntings. There are other numerous sites regarding hauntings. Youtube has lots of videos also.

Question 4) Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred?

The Biblically written miracles that were purported to have happened in the past are obviously not happening in our day (hence the need for a book/Bible to communicate). Accordingly, there is no way of proving that the Bible's miracles are true. It is my belief that a miracle would be hard to accept and prove if we were subjected to one in our day. How much harder would it be to then try and prove that a miracle happened thousands of years ago.
The standard of finding a person guilty during a court trial to imprison for life or death sentence can be based on evidence beyond reasonable doubt not beyond any doubt. You are asking beyond any doubt, which would mean that unless God,Jesus, someone does a miracle for you personally to remove any possibility of doubt, you wont believe. That's fine. But, there might be good reason why miracles haven't been happening as they once were happening as claimed in the Bible.

Question 5) Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described?

I can prove these miracles are possible, and therefore happened. It's obvious that these acts are impossible in a real world. However, our world isn't real. It's being dreamed into existence by a perfect person in the real world. The proof is that if you had control of your subconscious mind where your dream is created, you could easily create these events and more, if you chose. The people you created in your dream would have no way of knowing they were being dreamed into existence. How do you think the dreamer of our world knows how the world will end. Easy, after all events played through to this world's destruction, the dreamer replayed all events over and was able to tell old testament prophets of future events. That's why we get deja vu, clairvoyance at times, and hauntings.

Question 6) God intercedes in human affairs or life events?
Since the world is being dreamed into existence, it means the dreamer is always playing a role as a humanly born normal person in the dream. In Old Testament times, the dreamer's conscious mind communicated directly with patriarchs and messenger's (who represented God on Earth). In the latter times, and especially in the last generation, the dreamer communicates via a Bible. The reason is that several centuries after Jesus, the subconscious mind (where our world is dreamed) only accepts logical ways to exist in the world, which was based on how people were leaning to a more logical less superstitious world. Should God's conscious mind force a miracle, it would probably cause the subconscious mind to wake from the dream. Therefore God commanded prophets to write manuscripts that would survive to the latter days by which God can communicate and warn the latter day messenger and those with him to be saved from the outcome of this world's end, just as it happened in the first timeline of events. The proof is, as you intercede in your own dream, so God (the dreamer of this world) intercedes in this world.

Question 7) Bible writers were actually inspired by God?

Not all Bible writers were inspired by God. Gospel writers wrote of their claimed experiences according to their own experiences, evidence and testominials of others, while having a natural biased stance towards Jesus and salvation through Jesus. When a prophet commanded to write with a "Thus Saith The Lord" then that is inspired by God. The problem arises that there were many prophets claiming different things. One way to determine a prophet/messenger having a straight message is if his predictions happened (usually after the religious leaders and like minded population had the prophet/messenger and many that believed him/her killed). Then the following generation would then believe that the prophet's writings were inspired by God, even though their father's killed the prophet. Usually a messenger quoted God saying to the religious leaders, nation, and professed people of God that God had nothing good to say about them. Whereas false prophets said what the leaders and people of God wanted to hear. You stay alive longer that way. Where's the actual live- video- footage- like proof that confirms beyond doubt that they were inspired by God? There isn't any at this time available. Should the Bible and God be true, then proof beyond doubt will be shown during the dreamed judgment time from God's memory of all events that happened. If not, there is always reincarnation.

Asking for proof that isn't available doesn't always mean you will be able to know one way or another. Maybe put the pieces of the puzzle together to create the true picture of whether something is true or false, innocent or guilty.