Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?

[Nickman]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

[cnorman18]

...Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?...

According to preeminent Jewish scholar Abraham Joshua Heschel:

The goal of all efforts is to bring about the restitution of the unity of God and world. The restoration of that unity is a constant process and its accomplishment will be the essence of Messianic redemption (Man is not Alone, p. 112).

He goes on to say:

The Bible is not a history of the Jewish people, but the story of God's quest of the righteous man. Because of the failure of the human species as a whole to follow in the path of righteousness, it is an individual...on which the task is bestowed to satisfy that quest by making every man a righteous man (ibid, p. 245).

According to the earliest Jewish followers of Jesus the Jew, Jesus is that individual who makes every (hu)man righteous in God's eyes, thus fulfilling what Heschel describes as "the essence" of the Messianic task.

Surely you aren't trying to say that Abraham Joshua Heschel believed that Jesus was the Messiah.

Since that is a wholly ludicrous claim -- what on Earth do you hope to accomplish by ringing in these carefully selected quotes?

[Nickman]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

When aquestion such as this arises I wonder if I should re-title myself Cynic rather than Skeptic. By that I mean, that you are asking if the New Testament confirms the Old Testament? Since both are such such questionable sources I can't see how an answer to your question could ever been considered valid if one questionable source is asked to qualify an equally questionable source?

I think it is a simple honest question. The Messanic claims made in the Hebrew text have a possibility to be fulfilled. The NT claims to be that fulfillment so using the earlier document (Hebrew text) we set up the standards and requirements. Does the NT actually fulfill the Hebrew text? Moreover, does Jesus meet the requirements laid out in the Hebrew text? Jews say no, Christians say yes. Who is right. I understand that neither text can be shown to be factual and reliable but from what we do have written, can Jesus actually be what the NT claims him to be?

[cnorman18]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

When aquestion such as this arises I wonder if I should re-title myself Cynic rather than Skeptic. By that I mean, that you are asking if the New Testament confirms the Old Testament? Since both are such such questionable sources I can't see how an answer to your question could ever been considered valid if one questionable source is asked to qualify an equally questionable source?

I think it is a simple honest question. The Messanic claims made in the Hebrew text have a possibility to be fulfilled. The NT claims to be that fulfillment so using the earlier document (Hebrew text) we set up the standards and requirements. Does the NT actually fulfill the Hebrew text? Moreover, does Jesus meet the requirements laid out in the Hebrew text? Jews say no, Christians say yes. Who is right. I understand that neither text can be shown to be factual and reliable but from what we do have written, can Jesus actually be what the NT claims him to be?

Part of the problem is that the Hebrew Bible is not the only concern here, as far as Jews are concerned. In Jewish tradition, the Bible is unintelligible without the guidance of the traditions and teachings which have accompanied it from the beginning, including the Oral Torah, which is today in the form of the Talmud, as well as other documents and teachings. Some of the teachings about the Messiah are to be found in the Hebrew Bible, but not all.

I have written elsewhere on this subject; Jesus fulfilled a few trivial requirements of the Messiah, e.g. being from Bethlehem and of the tribe of Judah; but the rest of the requirements -- actually, identifying accomplishments -- of the Messiah were not met by Jesus, and in fact have not been met by any man.

More importantly, the figure of the Christ in Christianity is NOT THE SAME as the figure of the Messiah in Judaism. Jesus may very well be the Christ; that is not for me to say, and does not concern me. But he was NOT the Jewish Messiah. That is a judgment which may only be made by Jews, and it was made 2,000 years ago. As you say yourself: "Jews say no." Since the Messiah is a concept of the Jewish religion and concerns no one else, that is the end of the matter. Others may debate as much as they like, but as far as we Jews are concerned, the subject is closed.

As I have said elsewhere, NO Jew after the time of Jesus himself has ever accepted Jesus as the Messiah. Many have accepted him as the Christ, and become Christians; but that is quite another matter, whatever they may choose to call themselves.

[Nickman]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

When aquestion such as this arises I wonder if I should re-title myself Cynic rather than Skeptic. By that I mean, that you are asking if the New Testament confirms the Old Testament? Since both are such such questionable sources I can't see how an answer to your question could ever been considered valid if one questionable source is asked to qualify an equally questionable source?

I think it is a simple honest question. The Messanic claims made in the Hebrew text have a possibility to be fulfilled. The NT claims to be that fulfillment so using the earlier document (Hebrew text) we set up the standards and requirements. Does the NT actually fulfill the Hebrew text? Moreover, does Jesus meet the requirements laid out in the Hebrew text? Jews say no, Christians say yes. Who is right. I understand that neither text can be shown to be factual and reliable but from what we do have written, can Jesus actually be what the NT claims him to be?

Part of the problem is that the Hebrew Bible is not the only concern here, as far as Jews are concerned. In Jewish tradition, the Bible is unintelligible without the guidance of the traditions and teachings which have accompanied it from the beginning, including the Oral Torah, which is today in the form of the Talmud, as well as other documents and teachings. Some of the teachings about the Messiah are to be found in the Hebrew Bible, but not all.

I have written elsewhere on this subject; Jesus fulfilled a few trivial requirements of the Messiah, e.g. being from Bethlehem and of the tribe of Judah; but the rest of the requirements -- actually, identifying accomplishments -- of the Messiah were not met by Jesus, and in fact have not been met by any man.

More importantly, the figure of the Christ in Christianity is NOT THE SAME as the figure of the Messiah in Judaism. Jesus may very well be the Christ; that is not for me to say, and does not concern me. But he was NOT the Jewish Messiah. That is a judgment which may only be made by Jews, and it was made 2,000 years ago. As you say yourself: "Jews say no." Since the Messiah is a concept of the Jewish religion and concerns no one else, that is the end of the matter. Others may debate as much as they like, but as far as we Jews are concerned, the subject is closed.

As I have said elsewhere, NO Jew after the time of Jesus himself has ever accepted Jesus as the Messiah. Many have accepted him as the Christ, and become Christians; but that is quite another matter, whatever they may choose to call themselves.

I agree with you very much. My goal here is to speak to the Christian community and show them that their Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.

[EduChris]

...Surely you aren't trying to say that Abraham Joshua Heschel believed that Jesus was the Messiah...?

The salient point is that Heschel has a clear idea of the essence of the Jewish Messianic task, and his "essence of the Jewish Messianic task" matches up very nicely with the thoughts of Paul and the other earliest Jewish followers of Jesus the Jew.

[cnorman18]

...Surely you aren't trying to say that Abraham Joshua Heschel believed that Jesus was the Messiah...?

The interesting point is that Heschel has a clear idea of the essence of the Jewish Messianic task, and his "essence of the Jewish Messianic task" matches up very nicely with the thoughts of Paul and the other earliest Jewish followers of Jesus the Jew.

I suppose -- if you carefully choose two passages that are 133 pages apart, and are not speaking about a personal, individual Messiah anyway, but about the Messianic Age.

Too bad that Heschel is dead. I suspect he'd have a few words to say about your use of his work. Here are a few more of Heschel's words, from the Jewish News Archive, on a 1964 revised Ecumenical Council draft on Catholic-Jewish relations which cited the Church's traditional desire to convert Jews:

Dr. Abraham Joshua Heschel, professor of ethics and Jewish mysticism at the Jewish Theological Seminary, declared that any message which regards Jews as candidates for conversion "proclaims that the destiny of Judaism is to disappear." He said this would be "abhorred by Jews all over the world," stating it was "bound to foster reciprocal distrust as well as bitterness and resentment." Saying he had repeatedly told "leading personalities of the Vatican" that he was "ready to go to Auschwitz any time if faced with the alternatives of conversion or death," he declared that Jews everywhere would be "dismayed by a call from the Vatican to abandon their [Jewish] faith in a generation which witnessed the massacre of 6,000,000 Jews and the destruction of thousands of synagogues in Christian Europe."

I say again; the Christian figure of the Christ is NOT THE SAME as the Jewish figure of the Messiah. Whether Jesus was the redeeming risen Savior and the Divine Son of God is not my business; whether he was the mortal Jewish Messiah is -- and he wasn't. I think Heschel would agree; I have read three of his books, and have never seen a word to indicate otherwise.

None of which is said to demean or deny Christianity. Belief in either religion does not denigrate or deny the truth of the other, as Heschel himself held. Here is another quote from that good man: "Christians know and serve God through Jesus Christ and the Christian tradition. Jews know and serve God through the Torah and the Jewish tradition." We have a common heritage and a common ethic; we can be partners and not enemies or even rivals. This was Heschel's vision, if you've read his work. But there can be no talk of converting Jews: that is tantamount to "spiritual fratricide," again in Heschel's own words.

[Jarte]

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 279#499279]Nickman[/]
Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?
[/quote]
Yes as of now he best fits the need requirements of the Messiah.

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

I would direct you to the following link because the number of prophecies Jesus fulfilled are numerous in account; http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html .

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Depending on any single persons interpretation yes he can but if you go in looking unbiased and solely focused on the search for the key that will fit the lock, the only man in history that you find is Jesus.

[Goat]

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 279#499279]Nickman[/]
Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

Yes as of now he best fits the need requirements of the Messiah.

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

I would direct you to the following link because the number of prophecies Jesus fulfilled are numerous in account; http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html .

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Depending on any single persons interpretation yes he can but if you go in looking unbiased and solely focused on the search for the key that will fit the lock, the only man in history that you find is Jesus.[/quote]


Oh.. that's right. The God and Science has 'LISTS'. Of course, what that web site doe snot do is look at the prophecies in context..

People keep on bringing up those prophesies, but, well, when it comes to be willing to discuss them in detail, they seem to be much more reluctant.

Would you care to show WHY those OT texts are taking about Jesus? Maybe the top one you think best exemplifies those prophecies. Let's see you make a case that those claimed prophecies are 1) actually prophecies, and 2) about Jesus.

[cnorman18]

What follows is an excerpt from an interesting article on "Missionary Tactics" on the Jews for Judaism website. It appears pertinent to some of the arguments being presented here:

THE NUMBERS RACKET

Don't be impressed by the claim that Christians have 50, or 100, or 300 "proofs from the Jewish Bible" that they are correct in their claims about Jesus. As proof after proof is shown to be meaningless, the missionary will hide behind his numbers, as if to say: "Well, we have so many more proofs, what's the difference if you can disprove some of them". He will attempt to "split the difference" with you: "Well, even if half our proofs prove nothing, we still have another 25 or 50, or 150". Remember, all of their proofs can be shown to be untenable. Keep in mind that a faulty point is not worth 50% of a good point, or 25%, or 10%. It is worthless. The simple mathematics are: 50 x 0 = 0, 100 x 0 = 0, 300 x 0 = 0.

Here is another excerpt, from an article on "Spiritual Deception":

For millenia, Christian missionaries have sought Jewish converts. The choices were always quite clear, and for most Jews, the desire to remain Jewish has prevailed. In the middle of the 20th century, evangelical missionaries finally hit upon a way of circumventing this clarity by blurring the distinctions between Judaism and Christianity.

The so-called "Messianic Jewish" movement created a hybrid culture that diminishes the guilt normally experienced by Jewish people who convert to Christianity. Attending a traditional church service where the minister leads hymns worshipping Jesus would not feel "Jewish." A Messianic "synagogue" where the "rabbi," attired in a skullcap and prayer shawl, leads "Shabbat" services and Jesus is euphemistically referred to by the Hebrew "Yeshuah" feels much more comfortable.

The Messianic movement insists that since the original followers of Jesus were Jews, they are not engaging in a deception. They maintain that Jews who embrace Jesus don't cut themselves off from their heritage--on the contrary, they become completed or fulfilled Jews. However, it is misleading to suggest that Christianity is a legitimate Jewish option simply because Jesus' first disciples were Jews. After all, those who built and worshipped the Golden Calf were also Jews. Furthermore, the beliefs and practices of these original followers ultimately morphed when the movement was taken over in the 2nd century by non-Jews who were never part of the original movement. They developed ideas about the nature of God and how to relate to Him and the concept of Messiah and sin that veered dramatically from Judaism. They finally canonized a different set of scriptures and became a completely different religion.

The United States may have been a British colony at one time. However, it would make no sense to tell people living in England today that they can be more British by becoming American citizens. Ultimately, England and the United States had a parting of the ways. So, too, Judaism and Christianity once split into two different religions with very different belief systems. It is absurd to suggest that one can become more Jewish by embracing Christianity.

Judaism and Christianity are two different religions. That is not to say that one is correct and the other is wrong, or one true and one false. As I have posted elsewhere in this very thread, the great Jewish educator, Abraham Joshua Heschel, has said: "Christians know and serve God through Jesus Christ and the Christian tradition. Jews know and serve God through the Torah and the Jewish tradition." There is no need for us to be enemies, or even rivals; but that is not to say that we are the SAME.

[EduChris]

...you carefully choose two passages that are 133 pages apart...

Either quote, taken individually, would be in accord with the understanding of the earliest Jewish followers of Jesus the Jew.

...and are not speaking about a personal, individual Messiah anyway, but about the Messianic Age...

Does the Messiah play any significant role in inaugurating the Messianic Age? Or does it happen simply by osmosis?

...Heschel...he'd have a few words to say about your use of his work...

I made no use of his work other than to demonstrate that his understanding of the "essence of the Messianic role" is very much congruent with that of the earliest Jewish followers of Jesus the Jew.

...Heschel...declared that any message which regards Jews as candidates for conversion "proclaims that the destiny of Judaism is to disappear" ... he declared that Jews everywhere would be "dismayed by a call from the Vatican to abandon their [Jewish] faith...

Red herring. There is no need to talk about "conversion" or "abandoning the Jewish faith."

...the Christian figure of the Christ is NOT THE SAME as the Jewish figure of the Messiah...

Your notion here is demonstrated false per Heschel's own estimate of the "essence of the Messianic task."

...Christians know and serve God through Jesus Christ and the Christian tradition. Jews know and serve God through the Torah and the Jewish tradition." We have a common heritage and a common ethic; we can be partners and not enemies or even rivals...

I agree.

...there can be no talk of converting Jews...

Converting Jews is not the issue, and I have never raised it--though you have several times, despite my having repeatedly pointed out the red herringness of such talk.

Certainly if a Jew were to find the Jewish Messiah, that Jew would not "fall away from of Judaism" simply by recognizing the Jewish Messiah.

Whether Jesus is the Jewish Messiah is a matter of ontology. Whether certain Jews do or don't believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah is a matter of epistemology. In other words, if Jesus is in actual fact the Jewish Messiah, then he is the Jewish Messiah regardless of what any individual Jew or group of Jews happen to believe.

If Jesus the Jew believed that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the one true God, and if Jesus the Jew faithfully carried out the will of the God of the Patriarchs, and if Jesus' life and example and teaching were vindicated by God in raising Jesus from the dead, then Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.