Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?

[Nickman]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

[cnorman18]

Preamble
23.1. Critical to the effective implementation of the objectives, policies and mechanisms agreed to by Governments in all programme areas of Agenda 21 will be the commitment and genuine involvement of all social groups.

23.2. One of the fundamental prerequisites for the achievement of sustainable development is broad public participation in decision-making. Furthermore, in the more specific context of environment and development, the need for new forms of participation has emerged. This includes the need of individuals, groups and organizations to participate in environmental impact assessment procedures and to know about and participate in decisions, particularly those which potentially affect the communities in which they live and work. Individuals, groups and organizations should have access to information relevant to environment and development held by national authorities, including information on products and activities that have or are likely to have a significant impact on the environment, and information on environmental protection measures.

23.3. Any policies, definitions or rules affecting access to and participation by non-governmental organizations in the work of United Nations institutions or agencies associated with the implementation of Agenda 21 must apply equally to all major groups.

23.4. The programme areas set out below address the means for moving towards real social partnership in support of common efforts for sustainable development.

I've never cared even th sligtest about "One World Government" and "End Times" fears . . . but the preamble in the UN's declaration about Project 21 looks to be thedemands for a Marxist/Communist utopia that many indicate that it is.

Advocating "social partnership" and "common efforts" = "demands for a Marxist/Communist utopia"???

"...that many indicate that it is..."

The unattributed "many people say" is an old propaganda technique. What "many"? Who, specifically, "indicates" this?

Certainly a "mark" to identify us all for UN compliance is not too far fetched.

Perhaps you can show us the specific language in the document that proposes, or even hints at, such a thing.

Perhaps you can show us the specific language in the document that proposes or advocates anything that is in itself objectionable at all.

Oh, the OP?

That answer is yes. Jesus can only be the Messiah of the Hebrew Bible.

It's been observed before by moderators on this thread that merely expressing an unsupported opinion contributes nothing to the debate.

[arian]

Here are the facts on "Agenda 21" -- and here is the document itself.

Thank you cnorman18, ... how much of it have you read?

This I believe would be a good topic on a new thread, would you like to open/start it?
Agenda21

Agenda 21 is a comprehensive plan of action to be taken globally, nationally and locally by organizations of the United Nations System, Governments, and Major Groups in every area in which human impacts on the environment.

I never even heard about this agenda, ... did our President, or any of our Senators, Governors or even City Council members announce this huge undertaking that will effect "every area in which human impacts on the environment" ???

Seems like this is an instruction booklet for our new 'slave masters', those who rule over us on how they are to manage the population, not for us sub-human, or evolutionary ape-men. This is about the environment, not people. It clearly defines that 'people are the problem', not the ones ruling over us 'World Bank, Oil companies, Warmongers that create wars for practice (urban warfare) and so on.

Further Implementation of Agenda 21 and the Commitments to the Rio principles, were strongly reaffirmed at the World Summit on Sustainable Development

This is The United States of America, ... "for the people, by the people ..." NOT by some secret NWO organizations speaking and planning on behalf of the people of the entire world. Do I have a say about this, do you? How about those guys who are rotting in prison for inventing cars that run on water? Or the thousands of other energy-saving inventors we no longer hear about? Have these World Rulers considered them? LOL

Yes my friend, this is NOT 'Never Again', ... but 'Here we go again', only this time the efficiency of the exterminations are far better, and on a global scale where there is nowhere to hide, nothing to eat (they have depopulated and taken control of most of the earths sustenance (water being poisoned, fish in the oceans being destroyed, mass killing of deer and other wild animals that could be used for food, farming is strictly controlled by the NWO, deforestation - unless you believe that those jungle people are destroying the forest? etc.)

The plan is so obvious, it follows the path of history; Create a dependent and terrified population that is easily manipulated and controlled and rule over them. Only now there are way too many to control, so they create a imaginary situation where the masses can be exterminated.

"Are you hungry? It is because of them Negros in the ghettos (that we took the jobs from and put on welfare), so stand up and join us to put an end to hunger! You have no money, inflation, ... it is them Jews that stole and control all the Banks"

First, create a problem so big, that all the masses will come to you begging for 'CHANGE'!!! Then use that to implement a pre-planned global agenda of totalitarian RULE. This is that agenda my friends, Agenda 21!

Agenda 21, the Rio Declaration on Environment and Development, and the Statement of principles for the Sustainable Management of Forests were adopted by more than 178 Governments at the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development (UNCED) held in Rio de Janerio, Brazil, 3 to 14 June 1992.

The Commission on Sustainable Development (CSD) was created in December 1992 to ensure effective follow-up of UNCED, to monitor and report on implementation of the agreements at the local, national, regional and international levels. It was agreed that a five year review of Earth Summit progress would be made in 1997 by the United Nations General Assembly meeting in special session.

The full implementation of Agenda 21, the Programme for Further Implementation of Agenda 21 and the Commitments to the Rio principles, were strongly reaffirmed at the World Summit on Sustainable Development (WSSD) held in Johannesburg, South Africa from 26 August to 4 September 2002.

NWO: "Don't worry people, ... we have it all figured out! Sure we made a few mistakes along the way, ... but this agenda will fix every last one of them, ... trust us, ... we are your leaders and we care."

People: "But why can't we do it ourselves? This country was built upon small businesses, small farms, people of many faiths and religious background, ... independent from totalitarian government rule and look how quickly we became the greatest Nation on earth? People risk their lives to come to our country. But now, ... you guys even built an electric fence between North and South Korea ... and guard it as you would a high security prison to keep the North Koreans from escaping to freedom. Is this OUR future too?? How about the once great city like Detroit, ... Is Detroit a reflection of the future of our entire country, ... the entire world?"

NWO: "Listen you evolved ape, ... either you're WITH US, ... or AGAINST US. If your with us, you will get to live a little longer as you help us keep everyone in line, so choose wisely and 'take the mark of the beast'!

Come Jesus for all have bowed to the Beast, ... no one listens to reason, wickedness rules the entire earth and we are about to commit suicide! Why do you wait? We are no damn good... none of us, ... not even one.

[todd_vetter33]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

Currently Christians Claim Jesus fulfilled Many Prophecies. Most of which could have simply been written into the story to illusrtate Jesus fulfilling prophecy. Christians also Claim Jesus fulfilled Time specific Prophecy, but then give about 30 Differing explinations as to how he fulfilled those prophecies while illusrtating he fell short but claim it was ok for Jesus to fall short of time specific prophecy because Jews reckon a small part of a day as a whole day.

If Jesus fulfilled time specific Prophecy, It would have had to occur in accordence with the Scripture of time, otherwise scriptures of prophecy are open to personal interpretations and Christians will always make God look like a liar if Jesus was God's son and did fulfill prophecy.

There are two Old Testiment time specific prophecies concerning Jesus if Jesus fulfilled all things in the Laws of Moses, Prophets and Psalms concerning him.

First Prophecy is the time line of the origianal Passover Lamb: The next three charts illustrate how to determine from bible testimony what the time line of the origianal passover lamb was. Turns out the original Passover lamb died on a Wednesday.







The Second Time specific prophecy is the Daniel 70 Weeks prophecy. In the Daniel 70 Weeks prophecy, it specifically states Messiah the prince would be cut off in the midst/middle of the week. Many scholars claim this to have only been the middle of the 70th prophetic week but it turns out that the Daniel 70 Weeks prophecy identifies a year of Crucifixion where the Passover occured on a Wednesday.

To calculate the start date of the Daniel 70 Weeks prophecy. Use the next illustration.



This next illustration LEFT SIDE, illustrates the physical application of the Daniel 70 weeks prophecy on a time line.



This last time line illustration reflects the time line of the original Passover Lamb and illustrates a double prophecy fulfilment for the Daniel 70 Weeks prophecy where it is stated that Messiah would be cut off in the middle of the week. More importantly, is the fact that time specific prohpecy is able to be illustrated fulfilled in concernt with the scripture of time VS the inclusive reckonning of man.



Hope this helps in your understandings.

Blessings

[todd_vetter33]

There are multiple peices of the ancient record which support Jesus fulfilling prophecy even though Current Christian doctrine and speculations do not.

This chart illustrates the problem with current Christian tradtion and doctrine concerning Jesus and time specific prophecy.



Christians currently build their perceptions on the below 4 bible gospel half truths. If every detail of truth preserved below is placed on the same time line since every detail of truth should have a proper place, time specific prophecy fulfilment can be clearly seen.





There are several ancient text that support Jesus fulfilling prophecy even though current Christian tradtions do support Time specific prophecy fulfilment.

[todd_vetter33]

Time specific Prophecy is a witness that man cannot manipulate, unfortunately it appears that Christianity messed up the evidence of the time specific prophecy witness to a point that God looses Credibility if Jesus did in fact die on 5 April 30 AD according to time specific prophecy.

To Anwer the question addressed by this thread, "Was Jesus the Messiah of the Hebrew bible"?

This post will also address this question:
Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

According to Current Christian text found in Matthew and in Luke, The Isaiah 7 prophcy is mistranslated by Christians to support the lie told in the book of Matthew and the half truth told in Luke.


The daniel 70 weeks prophecy tells us when messiah the prince would come 26 AD and when Messiah the prince would be cut off 30 AD.

Did Jesus fit this Criteria?

Jesus fulfilled over 9 OT prophecies with his physical conception according to the flesh. The information on this page pre-dates what is currently found in the book of Matthew and luke which only fulfills a mistranlation of one OT prophecy.



According to some ancient texts, Jesus was born according to the spirit of God at the exact moment the Daniel 70 Weeks prophecy said Messiah the prince would come.



As seen in the previous posts I have shared, it appears Jesus could have fulfilled time specific prophecy, unfortunately Christianity is God's greatest enemy when telling the story of who Jesus was and what he accomplished if they are not telling the truth according to Prophecy since Prophecy is Alleged to be God's witness of his son.

[Danmark]

Time specific Prophecy is a witness that man cannot manipulate, unfortunately it appears that Christianity messed up the evidence of the time specific prophecy witness to a point that God looses Credibility if Jesus did in fact die on 5 April 30 AD according to time specific prophecy.

Blessings

The New Testament was written not only decades after the life of Jesus, but hundreds of years after the prophesies and written so as to appear to fit the prophesies. Think of a man shooting an arrow into the air and another moving the target to where the arrow appears to be landing.

[cnorman18]

I can't find an actual SOURCE for ANY of the above material. It's all stuff posted on an anonymous blog, perhaps by the author of these posts himself. There's no way to know, and without some actual attribution or scholarly source that can be verified, it's nothing more than unsupported opinion, and not worth the time to analyze or respond.

[todd_vetter33]

I can't find an actual SOURCE for ANY of the above material. It's all stuff posted on an anonymous blog, perhaps by the author of these posts himself. There's no way to know, and without some actual attribution or scholarly source that can be verified, it's nothing more than unsupported opinion, and not worth the time to analyze or respond.

The material is from my personal studies. I'm a High school graduate currently serving in the military working for a plethora of military chaplains of all faith backgrouds. looking to understand the lie that divides them.

The time you put into the material is up to you. it's the best case to date on paper that Jesus was the messiah who fulfilled time specific prophecy as well as many other Jewish prophecies that Christianity currently mis-represent.

[todd_vetter33]

Time specific Prophecy is a witness that man cannot manipulate, unfortunately it appears that Christianity messed up the evidence of the time specific prophecy witness to a point that God looses Credibility if Jesus did in fact die on 5 April 30 AD according to time specific prophecy.

Blessings

The New Testament was written not only decades after the life of Jesus, but hundreds of years after the prophesies and written so as to appear to fit the prophesies. Think of a man shooting an arrow into the air and another moving the target to where the arrow appears to be landing.

The 4 bible gospels were actually written so that they would not fit the time specific prophecies. They were written to fit Romes interpretation of the time specific prophecies.

The next few illustrations detail that rome was manipulating the ancient record away from what appears to have been the truth.





This next illustration is from a Second/third century bishop. He has a very interesting perception. If the bible gospel record was never altered by Rome, why does this bishop have his percption so vastly different from the current traditional view?





If anyone wants to know if the G-12 Text is ancient. Below is evidence



What I find most ironic about the worlds current state at telling the true story of Jesus according to prophecy: Christians don't want this information because they love their tradtion which they believe does not mis-represent Jesus. People who don't care due to the mis-representation of Christians don't want this informaiton because they love that they have a reason to doubt via Christianity!

[Danmark]

If anyone wants to know if the G-12 Text is ancient. Below is evidence

[image of non evidence redacted]

What I find most ironic about the worlds current state at telling the true story of Jesus according to prophecy: Christians don't want this information because they love their tradtion which they believe does not mis-represent Jesus. People who don't care due to the mis-representation of Christians don't want this informaiton because they love that they have a reason to doubt via Christianity!

Todd, I'm going to have to go with Wikipedia on this one, at least until the manuscript is produced. That's the manuscript that 'was "communicated" by departed mystics "in dreams and visions of the night"'.

The Gospel of the Holy Twelve is a disputed apocryphal publication which was first serialised in The Lindsey and Lincolnshire Star newspaper between July 30, 1898 and March 10, 1901.[1]
The first collected edition of essays (or 'Lections') by the author, a former clergyman, Rev. Gideon Jasper Richard Ouseley (1834"1906) was published in 1901. By the time of Ouseley's death the title was out of print but the executor of his manuscript, Samuel Hopgood Hart (1865"1958) re-issued the text in 1924. There have been numerous editions published since the 1950s and the title remains in print and on the Internet.[2]
[edit]Controversy

The Gospel of the Holy Twelve presents vegetarian versions of traditional teachings and events described in the canonical New Testament. The first collected volume was issued by The Order of At-One-Ment and United Templars Society - a publishing imprint which the author had established in 1881. The explanatory preface referred to an ancient source manuscript "preserved in the Monasteries of Thibet" which has never been produced or proven to exist. In subsequent editions, released during the early 1900s, the anonymous Editors revised their claim by stating that the text was "communicated" by departed mystics "in dreams and visions of the night".
The work remains unrecognised by academic Biblical scholars and has been dismissed by modern theologians and historians of the animal rights movement. In response to a campaign by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals which claimed "Jesus was a Vegetarian", the Reverend Professor Andrew Linzey referred to The Gospel of the Holy Twelve and similar publications, stating, "try as I may, I can find no evidence for their antiquity and I deeply fear that they are works of fiction."[3] Richard Alan Young, a Professor of New Testament Studies has similarly stated, "It appears that Ouseley created The Gospel of the Holy Twelve in support of animal welfare and vegetarianism."
_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel ... oly_Twelve
For more fun looking at this animal rights 19th Century silliness:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/ouseley01.html

Todd, instead of posting these images which no one here reads, you might try questioning your mentor about how he knows this text, which was not published until 1901, matches the actual manuscript in Tibet that was transmitted by dead mystics.