Right now..Lawless Days of Prophecy?

[nzlaws]

International examples of corruption, crime, etc include Nations perceived to be the least corrupt - what conclusions do theological observers come to based upon this amateur observation of evidence?

And more importantly what is the likely response from organised religions to this reality or how much worse before evidence quantifies prophecy?

I have worked a little in the mental health arena some years ago and am aware of the number of confused individuals that believe that they are "Jesus" and seen the organised Christian response to this (medication) so the likelihood of the real "Christ" Identifying himself to any religion in real time would be rather slim.

I personally suspect that saving the Planet from humanities stupidity would be Christs first goal in serving God- "This would require a new form of Government"... if not the solution then I am open to being impressed- are there any other thoughts on another possible methodology for saving the environment for Life that God provided

I see concepts of ownership as being the biggest hurdle - but couldn't find anywhere in the bible where ownership was transferred to the occupants- be it the family of mankind or the other families- all of which are Gods Creations- "Domain over" does not suggest or confer Disposition but rather highlights the difference between Stewardship and Ownership- one of these concepts does not include Disposition...

Come on folk enlighten me- Where are religions going? over and over the same ground year after year? what is new on the horizon- communications have evolved in the last few years- from this we can grow (am I wrong?).

[Adstar]

Hi- Adststar

I suspect that why less people believe Jesus is because of people that twist that which others say- don't listen to the mistakes of the past and fail to be able to be corrected- while setting themselves up as spokesman for perhaps religious gratification or perhaps other reasons- but there is a short piece in proverbs about a certain class of people being rather hard to get through to- no matter what method one tries- so rather than go over "all" the ground we have already covered I will address your new additions- [but first point out that waiting for God to clean up our messes is rather like having a 10year old child that refuses to wipe their bottom because he/she wants/expects daddy to do it- guess you missed that]

To quote someone with a little wisdom and who is not blinded by pride in humanity:

"The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history. Friedrich Hegel"

We can discard this one- as you have already pointed out that men are fallible- added to this we can strengthen the fallibility of your argument by pointing out say... as in Aviation - when a plane crashes they have a "black box" from which problems can be determined and addressed- that a problem of this nature doesn't reoccur. Just one example where the history is very important to learn from.


I noted this new addition in your address to "Cathar1950"

Ahh But i am not proposing a system of world governement am i.

I am not putting my hands up for world leadership.

I am not running around with a badge and a gun.

For this we can all thank God - I will now repeat my suggestion-

"We need a new "FORM" of Government" - you seem to read into this a lot more than is presented

I might have been suggesting that Infrastructure should be "owned" by the people for the people and that "Free" to the People would be a good goal- and that if somebody wanted to make money out of using aspects of that infrastructure such as electricity- then let central Government work out how that is to be taxed in favour of the "People"... I might have pointed out that this would ensure that even the poor or vulnerable have reasonable access to their property rather than just a small minority milking the whole herd- I might also have pointed out that leaders without goals are not really leaders and that to me- goals are far more important- and if good -would probably be less transient than so called leaders (mortals)- in this school of life

How come you didn't spot that coming?
.

Didn't spot what coming. More idealistic ramblings that have never succeeded and will never succeed in delivering a utopia on earth? The system you propose above is just a rehashed socialism with limited controlled businessmen being allowed to make a controlled profit. You system would fail just as any of the others that have been tried. They are all controlled and administered by fallible human beings. They are doomed to fail.

Nothing else you have said above merits a response from me...

Are you suggesting businesspersons should be allowed uncontrolled profit and power?

No. Please quote where i did say that i wanted businesspersons to be allowed uncontrolled profits and power?

Just because i identify one proposed system as faulty Does not mean i support another. ALL Systems of man are faulty and vulnerable to undermining by the very corrupt nature of mankind. ALL SYSTEMS.

How about corporations, should they be controlled? How about individuals? I see no merit is dismissing controls as socialism or the redistribution and limits of wealth along with its powers. Do you advocate just waiting for God to put a stop to it will collapse?

Personally yes i advocate waiting for God to put things right, and i believe He shall do just this at the second coming of the Messiah Jesus. Mankind can go from one bloody revolution to counter revolution and back again every few generations, they can have their culling of the lower administrators and think they have established a new would order and they can delude themselves into looking for ward to some utopia, But sooner or later the nature of man and the greed of the true elites will bring misery and strife again. Around and around the world goes on its roundabout, the elites maintain their control and the gullible pawns on the bottom march off to the slaughter while the elites laugh behind their backs.

Who do you think is going to control our systems, God?

No. God allows humanity who have rejected Him to go on their merry way lead by their pied pipers from one disaster to another. But sooner or later the number of those that will believe shall be reached and then God will take direct control.

I dont think we can just wait and see even if we dont have much choice, we need to experiment.

Yeah like Chinas great leap forward experiment that lead to starvation and the deaths of million or maybe Pol Pots experiment attempting to create his agrarian utopia by emptying the cities of Cambodia and reset the date to year 0. Should i continue with the other experiments that have been delivered on the backs of the common people like a so many whips ripping the flesh of them.

They dont fail as much as things change and they fail to respond adequately. Nevertheless, life goes on. We all die, should we just stop living?

I believe in making the best of whatever system i live under. But i never delude myself into thinking that the system i live under is a utopia. And thanks be to God i am never moved to believe any alternative proposed by agents of the elites will be better. Yes the idealist types, the Red guards of mao, the nazi youth of hitler, Pol Pots Khmer rouge and so many more will quickly take the bait set for them and will merrily march off with fists punching the air shouting their empty slogans. But not me thanks be to God.

But the utopia i believe in is dependant on the perfection of a perfect God not on the works of fallible corrupt men.

So my idealism is safe and secure because it is in God. All other idealists who place their faith in "ism's" of men will end up having their heart felt desires betrayed and wrecked.

Utopia if I recall means nowhere.

Well you must be one of the very few people who do not see the word to mean an idealistic life in a perfect existence. You are the first person i have ever talked to who believes that Utopia means nowhere.

Why would God do for his creature what they should and can do?

Because man cannot do it. Men are cursed by the fact that they can think up seemingly utopian systems and envisage a utopian existence but they do not have the self-control and wisdom to realise their dreams. They never have, they never will.

Hearts can be wrecked and betrayed with more or less and as fallible creature there is no guarantee, we can know the perfection of God while doing better is always a possibility and hope. You are just preaching.

And what are you doing? Preaching. Anyone who gives an opinion or their views can be said to be preaching. You have just said we are fallible creatures. Well done at least your realise that. And from that basic understanding you should agree with my POV that No utopia will ever be achieved in any system devised and built by man.

The problem arises when we go from an infallible God to fallible humans such as yourself and the rest of us. Only God can be infallible and infallible know and understand making the details the problem of God's creatures.
There is simply no agreement as to what God has in mind that doesn't force us to make fallible choices that can't appeal to God without begging the question.

Ahh But i am not proposing a system of world governement am i.

I am not putting my hands up for world leadership.

I am not running around with a badge and a gun.

I am giving a message about God and the Way to be reconciled with Him for eternity.

And if God wills for His message to be given by humans then He can make them infallible within the confines of giving that message.

It is still begging the question, which you are still forced to answer in a response to living.
It does not matter where you put your hands, as we will still need world leaderships, governments and controls.[/quote]

Yes and we do have World leaderships governments and controls and as a Christian i do not seek to take over any Leaderships governments or controls. My Messiah Jesus tells be to pay my taxes and obey their laws. But Jesus tells me to never look upon them as being Good. This world is lead by evil men and God has allowed these evil men to rule for a time. I await in joyful expectation of the coming of my Messiah Jesus to destroy this system that is upon my back and to remove the power of the evil ones.

So on the one hand i obey the powers that be while at the same time i believe they are evil and long to see their power removed, But i shall not be removing their power by my own actions or violence. It is the returning Messiah Jesus that will do this thing for me. All Glory and Honour and Praise is to Jesus. He will do the Work.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Frankly]

So from this last outburst we can presume (if we considered adstar's comments to be credible)that

1- Jesus reckons we should all help fund and support evil

2- Jesus better not come back as a man because he will be fallible- and as such not worth listening to because he should single handedly fix all the problems of the world without requiring any help from fallible mankind - that conveniently made the messes

3- It is wise to do nothing because wise man say we incapable of learning and wise men are not as fallible as normal men therefore we should ignore facts if they are inconsistent with adstars assertive, uncompromising, interpretation of reality or choice of wise men.

4-Jesus would support business ethics in relationship to the milking of families reliant on infrastructure because man is fallible (or perhaps stupid?)


You have challenged my faith in religions (not God) and won adstar- I now see clearly how fallible you and your fellow? sheep have become- if you are a "fair" example of what religions turn out then "God help us all" would be a reasonable prayer - hoping of course that some of us will not be so fallible as you determine that we were intended to be

It seems fair to me now that you "should" be fleeced as such a representative of fallibility



I suspect that the originator of this thread got his answer as to the possibilities of Christian Unity and/or if he would be interested in participating- (I would be most reluctant)

However there are others that share a distaste for the way things are developing with crime, corruption etc. and I suspect that NZLaws has managed to plant a seed in the minds of rational men that similarly share such distaste

I reckon God loves a try-er (fallible spelling?) and as such worthwhile Goals will always be more attractive than waffler's but I guess it really is all about what we seek and if we are just prepared to sit on our unwiped bottoms to get that which we seek

A very interesting Christian? view you have portrayed for us adstar - I suspect you have more to add though so I better keep mine shortish as you are really impressive and not a bit misleading to rational, intelligent individuals that know to learn from both their own mistakes and the mistakes of others

ps Recently it was found that the world is round not flat- are you a believer?

ALL PRAISE GOD- ABOVE "The fallibility of the Ancient Days"

[Adstar]

So from this last outburst we can presume (if we considered adstar's comments to be credible)that

1- Jesus reckons we should all help fund and support evil

We should pay our taxes. How they decide to spend our taxes is up to them.

No i do not support any world authority by desisting from rebelling against them. You got to understand the borderlines that exist between me and the authorities of the world. Paying taxes is not support it is being obedient to the will of Jesus.

2- Jesus better not come back as a man because he will be fallible- and as such not worth listening to because he should single handedly fix all the problems of the world without requiring any help from fallible mankind - that conveniently made the messes

Jesus never was Just a man. While He did come in the flesh He did not have the faulty human nature. He will come again in the flesh and he will still not have the faulty human nature.

3- It is wise to do nothing because wise man say we incapable of learning and wise men are not as fallible as normal men therefore we should ignore facts if they are inconsistent with adstars assertive, uncompromising, interpretation of reality or choice of wise men.

You can make up your own mind and follow your own will. You decide whom to believe and whom to reject. Thats your free will.

4-Jesus would support business ethics in relationship to the milking of families reliant on infrastructure because man is fallible (or perhaps stupid?)

No. Where did you derive that message? Not from me i hope.

You have challenged my faith in religions (not God) and won adstar- I now see clearly how fallible you and your fellow? sheep have become- if you are a "fair" example of what religions turn out then "God help us all" would be a reasonable prayer - hoping of course that some of us will not be so fallible as you determine that we were intended to be

Well i am not a fair example. I believe i belong to a very small minority.

It seems fair to me now that you "should" be fleeced as such a representative of fallibility

And may your evil desires for me "to be fleeced" be repented of.

I suspect that the originator of this thread got his answer as to the possibilities of Christian Unity and/or if he would be interested in participating- (I would be most reluctant)

There is spiritual unity within the body of Christ, not in Christianity and not in religion.

However there are others that share a distaste for the way things are developing with crime, corruption etc. and I suspect that NZLaws has managed to plant a seed in the minds of rational men that similarly share such distaste

I have had a distaste for it nearly all my life.

I reckon God loves a try-er (fallible spelling?) and as such worthwhile Goals will always be more attractive than waffler's but I guess it really is all about what we seek and if we are just prepared to sit on our unwiped bottoms to get that which we seek

And Christians do try. But they always know that in the end it is Jesus who will succeed.

A very interesting Christian? view you have portrayed for us adstar - I suspect you have more to add though so I better keep mine shortish as you are really impressive and not a bit misleading to rational, intelligent individuals that know to learn from both their own mistakes and the mistakes of others

As i have stated before. if people learned from the mistakes of history then humanity would have established an unending utopia on earth long ago. But of course they have not and will not. Mark my words if you want and review then when you get to your old age. You will see i am right.

ps Recently it was found that the world is round not flat- are you a believer?

Oh that was known a long time ago.

Isaiah 40
22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Frankly]

[font=Times New Roman]So you will like this one found on another thread then adstar[/font]

I would suggest that ones opinion of world view is based upon where he/she sits

As examples an Astronaut would have a World view quite different to that of an individual that has been a Fisherman all his life, which would differ somewhat from an individual that has never seen the coast each reliant upon the Evidence of their own perception of sight of vision.

Rather than considering the different points of view as being right or wrong it would probably be wiser to examine aspects of the differences that are consistent with all three as your answer- may be right there.

So of course we would state that "Time" is of the essence of all things including the Time it takes to formulate/get to, any point of view, and indeed to express that point of view

We can of course thank "Christ" for enabling a methodology to include "Time" (2011 AD) as our significant measure of both Human behavioral patterns, cultures, the unexplainable etc, and the significance of these in our individual appraisal of world view- the Obvious aspect of proving this evidence is that it will take you some "Time" to read this and some "Time" to formulate an argument for or against this Observation..

ps...Hope that is helpful

From this we can now call Isaiah a profit?

[McCulloch]

Recently it was found that the world is round not flat- are you a believer?

Oh that was known a long time ago.

Isaiah 40
22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

The Hebrew word Chug () used in Isaiah 40, means a flat-circle like a coin.
The Hebrew word for a sphere like a ball is Dur (") used in Isaiah 22:18.

This passage cannot be used to show that the prophet knew the spherical shape of our planet.

[JoeyKnothead]

Recently it was found that the world is round not flat- are you a believer?

Oh that was known a long time ago.

Isaiah 40
22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

The Hebrew word Chug () used in Isaiah 40, means a flat-circle like a coin.
The Hebrew word for a sphere like a ball is Dur (") used in Isaiah 22:18.

This passage cannot be used to show that the prophet knew the spherical shape of our planet.

I think McCulloch's take is the more reasonable.

Stand outside, turn and survey the world around you. You'll eventually turn a complete circle. While doing so, at no point do you really observe an orbed earth; your vision is essentially laying out a 'flat' circle. I think this is more likely what we're given in the referenced passage, but...

We can also think of someone up on a mountain. Some are high enough to see the curvature of the earth, but even then, this simple human observation shouldn't lead us to conclude a god has provided this simple and now rather obvious insight.

There's also the issue of the heavens laid out "like a curtain". This to me, seems more an observation from a two-dimensional perspective, indicating the speaker is unaware of stars of varying distances from the planet.

[Frankly]

.

[font=Times New Roman]Or the comment was simply sarcasm relating to religious baggage- making the following more relevant (seemingly as time would have it)
[/font]

I would suggest that ones opinion of world view is based upon where he/she sits

As examples an Astronaut would have a World view quite different to that of an individual that has been a Fisherman all his life, which would differ somewhat from an individual that has never seen the coast each reliant upon the Evidence of their own perception of sight of vision.

Rather than considering the different points of view as being right or wrong it would probably be wiser to examine aspects of the differences that are consistent with all three as your answer- may be right there.

So of course we would state that "Time" is of the essence of all things including the Time it takes to formulate/get to, any point of view, and indeed to express that point of view

We can of course thank "Christ" for enabling a methodology to include "Time" (2011 AD) as our significant measure of both Human behavioral patterns, cultures, the unexplainable etc, and the significance of these in our individual appraisal of world view- the Obvious aspect of proving this evidence is that it will take you some "Time" to read this and some "Time" to formulate an argument for or against this Observation..

ps...Hope that is helpful

If we were to solve some of the worlds problems then the astronauts world view would be the best Real Time vantage point - Looks like it needs a lot of real work in Quicktime

........................... Yeeeep

[font=Times New Roman]From this altitude you cannot be accused of "having your head stuck in the clouds", you cannot "Drown in the Waters" or find yourself "Stuck between a Rock and a Hard place"....The perfect (Heavenly?)Watchtower from which none of us in the Family of Mankind would be seen as more than a Speck of Dust- (using pretty good magnification)[/font]

[Frankly]

Wooohoo was that a topic stopper or what?- have I talked everyone into accepting that these are the end days?

I hope that it is the end days of "Lord Buck" - he has controlled man and mankind's beliefs and behavior toward each other, the other critters and this planet for far too long-

I suspect folk are not ready or brave enough to face life without that scoundrel though-

But who else could they worship or be so devoted and loyal to?

[Adstar]

So from this last outburst we can presume (if we considered adstar's comments to be credible)that

1- Jesus reckons we should all help fund and support evil

hummm You try to put things in the worst possible way. But anyway. Jesus instructed us to put up with whatever Authority was above us and to pay whatever burden they place upon us. In the end it is their decision what they do with the resources they have extracted from us. So in a way we do partly fund their evil. So be it. But the evil that they do is upon their heads. Not ours.

2- Jesus better not come back as a man because he will be fallible- and as such not worth listening to because he should single handedly fix all the problems of the world without requiring any help from fallible mankind - that conveniently made the messes

You have not understood the message i have given. Jesus came in the flesh, in a human body. But He was not fallible like all other men. Actually i clearly answered this question earlier. Please take the time to read my posts,

3- It is wise to do nothing because wise man say we incapable of learning and wise men are not as fallible as normal men therefore we should ignore facts if they are inconsistent with adstars assertive, uncompromising, interpretation of reality or choice of wise men.

ummm... What? Never said anything like the above.

4-Jesus would support business ethics in relationship to the milking of families reliant on infrastructure because man is fallible (or perhaps stupid?)

I never said anything like this.

You have challenged my faith in religions (not God) and won adstar- I now see clearly how fallible you and your fellow? sheep have become- if you are a "fair" example of what religions turn out then "God help us all" would be a reasonable prayer - hoping of course that some of us will not be so fallible as you determine that we were intended to be

Well funny you use the term "God help us all" because thats what fallible men who know they are fallible want. Help from God because they Need it.

It seems fair to me now that you "should" be fleeced as such a representative of fallibility

No one in relation to churches has "fleeced" me, either theologically or in financial terms. And don't you think it is wrong to see as "fair" someone being scammed?

Or do you take joy in others misfortune?

I suspect that the originator of this thread got his answer as to the possibilities of Christian Unity and/or if he would be interested in participating- (I would be most reluctant)

The Body of Christ is unified. But what people call Christianity includes a lot of people who are not of the Body of Christ. Unity is assured among those lead by the Holy Spirit. And the true "Church" is made up of people Lead by the Holy Spirit. Just because that Church seems invisible to you, does not mean that church does not exist.

However there are others that share a distaste for the way things are developing with crime, corruption etc. and I suspect that NZLaws has managed to plant a seed in the minds of rational men that similarly share such distaste

I hate crime and corruption also. I hate it with a passion. And i am supremely confident that my God is going to put it to an end once and for all. I live with real Hope.

People who think they can achieve it by their actions and efforts are self deluded. They have no real hope. History is littered with bitter old men who died angry, who once where idealistic young men who where fooled into believing that they could change the world. But where only used as pawns in the elites sick game.

I reckon God loves a try-er (fallible spelling?) and as such worthwhile Goals will always be more attractive than waffler's but I guess it really is all about what we seek and if we are just prepared to sit on our unwiped bottoms to get that which we seek

Yes God loves people who seek good and resist evil. Thats the right Spirit. But while thats a war both worthy of engaging in within oneself and with others through the convicting words of the Word of God, It is not one that should be engaged in with a mind that one will ever have total victory. Victory will be through The Messiah Jesus.

A very interesting Christian? view you have portrayed for us adstar - I suspect you have more to add though so I better keep mine shortish as you are really impressive and not a bit misleading to rational, intelligent individuals that know to learn from both their own mistakes and the mistakes of others

Ha ha ha.. "rational, intelligent individuals".LOL . What High and Flowery words you have to describe yourself.

ps Recently it was found that the world is round not flat- are you a believer?

Do you guys copy and past this line from some anti-Christian site on the web? Cause I am getting the same line from multiple posters.

ALL PRAISE GOD- ABOVE "The fallibility of the Ancient Days"

Well clear mockery of the God of Abraham here. What can i say... Pathetic seems to be the appropriate word.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Frankly]

Good to see you back Adstar- get your leg pulled too often and you will limp- I reckon

I suspect we went way off topic when I suggested that waiting for a divine being to clean up our mess amounted to a form of apathy- finding reasons to support apathy within scripture is not a new fallibility of our species so- we gained nothing there probably and simply moved our conversation to la la land

Most of the items in your post were already haggled but you did ask this question

Or do you take joy in others misfortune?

I had several hundred sheep about twenty years ago and they actually enjoyed being fleeced- so I was pulling your leg from a farmers point of view-
I gave up farming because it became clear that the other species of animal were intelligent beings with a sense of family- they were able to organise themselves elaborate defenses and displayed that they had codes of acceptable behavior within their family grouping- more important than measuring their worth by their intelligence I measured their worth by their ability to love each other- and failed as a farmer when I became reluctant to place a monetary value upon life for the purpose of death- bit like 30 pieces of silver only worse

So It became harder and harder for me to send them off to the works and I soon came to the conclusion that one of those "Ten Commandments" was clearly misinterpreted throughout Christianity to suit an appetite for the flesh of the dead-

It further occurred to me that god did not put the boundaries up that we place between ourselves that we can call man neighbor- it was man that did that-

Some of the other Animals are better behaved than our species and it became impossible for me to justify being a farmer as it is a cruel and unnecessary practice which only served "Lord Buck" and blinds Good people from examining reality rather than simply accepting the reality tendered.

You mention the Holy Spirit

The Body of Christ is unified. But what people call Christianity includes a lot of people who are not of the Body of Christ. Unity is assured among those lead by the Holy Spirit. And the true "Church" is made up of people Lead by the Holy Spirit. Just because that Church seems invisible to you, does not mean that church does not exist.

Firstly I wonder if you are sure that it is the Holy spirit actually leading this church you are describing or simply a few cynical chaps that like a wee dram on the quiet- If the leaders were genuine they would be able to explain just where they are leading you but if not- they will just keep you waiting for God to clean up while they have their sausages with a Wee dram- (hardly needs leadership)

preemptively-I am not suggesting that there is no Holy Spirit though so don't go there.

I hate crime and corruption also. I hate it with a passion. And i am supremely confident that my God is going to put it to an end once and for all. I live with real Hope.

People who think they can achieve it by their actions and efforts are self deluded. They have no real hope. History is littered with bitter old men who died angry, who once where idealistic young men who where fooled into believing that they could change the world. But where only used as pawns in the elites sick game.

As individuals there is little that could be achieved even with a good plan- it would take one man more than a lifetime to build a skyscraper single handed and would seem impossible if he had to manufacture all the materials to do so- but teams working to achieve the goals have proved that what would seem impossible for one man can be achieved by many sharing the same goal- there are heaps of skyscrapers

These teams are builders and they achieve- waiting for God to clean up our mess doesn't require a church or an architect just a comfortable chair - (a Wee tithe would help get the comfortable seat and a lamb roast to go with the Wee dram though- nothing new there)

ALL PRAISE GOD- ABOVE "The fallibility of the Ancient Days"

Well clear mockery of the God of Abraham here. What can i say... Pathetic seems to be the appropriate word.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Pathetic it is to seek a comfortable place in which to consummate apathy- while consuming sausages and that Wee dram- or perhaps pathetic is contributing to it and/or defending it.


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