Atheists are 'discriminated against'?

[stubbornone]

Well, here is the story:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-pag ... 32279.html

"While there are certainly numerous problems with the developmental program at West Point and all service academies, the tipping point of my decision to resign was the realization that countless officers here and throughout the military are guilty of blatantly violating the oaths they swore to defend the Constitution. These men and women are criminals, complicit in light of day defiance of the Uniform Code of Military Justice through unconstitutional proselytism, discrimination against the non-religious and establishing formal policies to reward, encourage and even at times require sectarian religious participation."

Yep, in this 'long gray line' of hypocrisy and discrimination, our hero above lists ... not a single instance of this supposedly pervasive trend in the military. So, here are some things that our oppressed atheists have to ... painfully tolerate.

#1 - Prayers, those who are religious, and there are many different denominations BTW, will pray. Those who wish to pray collectively are allowed to do - freedom of religious expression is a protected right. Being unconscionably offended by someone else's expression of religion is ... aside from making you a total wanker ... also not about the US Constitution.

#2 - No doubt, just like our hero here, religious groups are afforded space and time to pray and organize, as does the author of this article. Somehow though, allowing others to practice their faith is intolerable to him? But his .. er, religious? views must be afforded sole consideration?

Beyond that, the military really doesn't give a hoop about your faith. It encourages you to have one, in anything, but only because it helps, scientifically proven, to deal with the rigors of combat. You want to be Pagan? More power too ya. You want to be atheist? Great, but we'd encourage you to explore secular humanism, if only to have a non-affiliative source that will help you deal with the emotional aspect of combat.

Somehow, this approach is ... intolerable to young atheists? Science and the effects of combat on human beings are to be rejected in favor of hyperbole?

Well, I for one hope the Army recoups its entire investment in this gravely discriminated dork - who is SO discriminated against that they allowed him into the school, trained him, educated him, allowed him to freely practice and organize his faith - indeed even be a student leader ... and this was intolerable disrespect because the Army didn't shut down everyone else's faith? Prevent the criticism of his precious choices?

Not only will this be an expensive life lesson, but when young atheist super hero joins the actual work force, he'll quickly discover that no employer anywhere appreciates a young crusader who pisses off all their religious clients. What then atheist hero?

The Army is there to win wars. Businesses are there to make money. This guy? Has a lot to learn about how the world works and the costs of excessive pride and rationalization.

I for one advocate that we let him learn that lesson. The last thing our boys need in combat is some wanker talking about how much worse he has it than everyone else around him.

[Goat]

I feel discriminated against by the IRS because they give me no choice in paying taxes.

You have the choice of not paying 'em, and potentially going to jail.

That you don't like the choice offered doesn't mean there ain't one being offered.

And atheists can close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears during prayer time in schools. Everything in life is about choice. But the IRS is not giving me a choice of paying or not paying. If I don't pay they come and take everything I own. So no I don't have a choice and thus I am discriminated against.

Not only that but I am taxed everywhere I go. At the pump, at the cash register, at the restaurant. So in these cases they just take it without offering a choice.

So, give up your social security number, give up your post office box, stop using currency.. and go to the barter system, and you don't have to pay taxes if it means so much to you.

As for prayer in school. the landmark decision .. in 1962 was brought by religious people who said having the school lead a prayer to 'almight god' was against their religious view..

Mind you, that is school lead prayer.. over the intercom. Students, on their own, have the right to pray, or not.

Many a prayer has gone out in public schools to this very day, particularly right before the math test.

[stubbornone]

I feel discriminated against by the IRS because they give me no choice in paying taxes.

You have the choice of not paying 'em, and potentially going to jail.

That you don't like the choice offered doesn't mean there ain't one being offered.

And atheists can close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears during prayer time in schools. Everything in life is about choice. But the IRS is not giving me a choice of paying or not paying. If I don't pay they come and take everything I own. So no I don't have a choice and thus I am discriminated against.

Not only that but I am taxed everywhere I go. At the pump, at the cash register, at the restaurant. So in these cases they just take it without offering a choice.

So, give up your social security number, give up your post office box, stop using currency.. and go to the barter system, and you don't have to pay taxes if it means so much to you.

As for prayer in school. the landmark decision .. in 1962 was brought by religious people who said having the school lead a prayer to 'almight god' was against their religious view..

Mind you, that is school lead prayer.. over the intercom. Students, on their own, have the right to pray, or not.

Many a prayer has gone out in public schools to this very day, particularly right before the math test.

And the simple fact of the matter is that prayer is a protected - explicitly - expression. You can disagree with it all you want, no one is saying you have to like it.

BUT ...

You DO have to allow people to express it, and if you do not ... its your antics that can be restrained. Make sense?

And the simple fact of the matter is that if West Point did what wonderkid wants them to, they face a slew of law suits for ... drum roll ... blocking free speech.

What SSN's and barter systems have to do with that? No idea.

But atheists, who seem to define themselves solely by attempting to deny other people their protected rights, are just going to have to get over themselves or continue banging their heads into a wall ... or resigning from West Point so people can think wonder wanker is either an idiot a coward or both.

We can pray. You'll just have to accept that atheists.

[stubbornone]

I feel discriminated against by the IRS because they give me no choice in paying taxes.

You have the choice of not paying 'em, and potentially going to jail.

That you don't like the choice offered doesn't mean there ain't one being offered.

That is not a real choice Joey.

When we are forced to pay taxes at least in theory we might think the money goes to maybe building roads and helping parents feed their families. Something that could benefit us now or maybe just maybe we might need to fall back on one day.

A better comparison might be a government that extracted a tax from you, made you watch them spend it on bibles that said that as an atheist you are a fool, and then have these bibles handed out to everyone with Psalm 14:1 underlined and emboldened.

That has what to do with the situation at West Point where wonderkid was offered the same rights and protections as everyone else ... but, us praying (expressing our faith) offended him, even though he was freely allowed to practice his faith .. which no doubt offends some ... well, that is intolerable to wanker boy.

A far more apt comparison rather than imaginary scenarios that have no basis in anything other than a desire to be a victim would be complaining because a road was laid EQUACTLY equally between two villages ... but you think it should be closer to your village than the other village, even though the other village is much larger ... and now that you think about it, the road shouldn't go toward the other village AT ALL! And if you don;t agree with that ... its because you are a bigot who hates the constitution.

Why are atheists defending these antics?

[Furrowed Brow]

Why are atheists defending these antics?

Likely because of this point

..discrimination against the non-religious and establishing formal policies to reward, encourage and even at times require sectarian religious participation.

If this is clearly false or misleading then there is nothing or little to defend here.

If it is close to true then we debate 1/ its significance 2/ whether that two way road should be made level.

As far as I can tell you are not denying the truth of the claim, but you are claiming the reality of this kind of descrimination is not important and the fellah should get over it, and atheists should quite their whining....yet you do not deny the truth of the claim....or at least I do not think you are saying we are whining over an outrageous lie.

When asked questions and given imaginary examples to probe how you might feel if the position was reversed you fail to offer a straight answer, which leads to the observation you accept the two way road is not on the level and you like it that way, and would resist moves to bring West Point in line with the constitution. In fact you seem to be arguing that if the road is made level that would be unfair.

[Goat]

I feel discriminated against by the IRS because they give me no choice in paying taxes.

You have the choice of not paying 'em, and potentially going to jail.

That you don't like the choice offered doesn't mean there ain't one being offered.

And atheists can close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears during prayer time in schools. Everything in life is about choice. But the IRS is not giving me a choice of paying or not paying. If I don't pay they come and take everything I own. So no I don't have a choice and thus I am discriminated against.

Not only that but I am taxed everywhere I go. At the pump, at the cash register, at the restaurant. So in these cases they just take it without offering a choice.

So, give up your social security number, give up your post office box, stop using currency.. and go to the barter system, and you don't have to pay taxes if it means so much to you.

As for prayer in school. the landmark decision .. in 1962 was brought by religious people who said having the school lead a prayer to 'almight god' was against their religious view..

Mind you, that is school lead prayer.. over the intercom. Students, on their own, have the right to pray, or not.

Many a prayer has gone out in public schools to this very day, particularly right before the math test.

And the simple fact of the matter is that prayer is a protected - explicitly - expression. You can disagree with it all you want, no one is saying you have to like it.

BUT ...

You DO have to allow people to express it, and if you do not ... its your antics that can be restrained. Make sense?

And the simple fact of the matter is that if West Point did what wonderkid wants them to, they face a slew of law suits for ... drum roll ... blocking free speech.

What SSN's and barter systems have to do with that? No idea.

But atheists, who seem to define themselves solely by attempting to deny other people their protected rights, are just going to have to get over themselves or continue banging their heads into a wall ... or resigning from West Point so people can think wonder wanker is either an idiot a coward or both.

We can pray. You'll just have to accept that atheists.

And,no one is stopping them.

However, the school, as a representative of the government, can not promote religion. The students can pray all they want.. the teachers and the school can not get involved in either promoting, or discriminating against it.

The 'prayer' in West point was promoting religious prayer. .. in specifically 'in the name of Jesus'. .. as representing the American government, this is unconstitutional.

[Zetesis Apistia]

I feel discriminated against by the IRS because they give me no choice in paying taxes.

You have the choice of not paying 'em, and potentially going to jail.

That you don't like the choice offered doesn't mean there ain't one being offered.

And atheists can close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears during prayer time in schools. Everything in life is about choice. But the IRS is not giving me a choice of paying or not paying. If I don't pay they come and take everything I own. So no I don't have a choice and thus I am discriminated against.

Not only that but I am taxed everywhere I go. At the pump, at the cash register, at the restaurant. So in these cases they just take it without offering a choice.

So, give up your social security number, give up your post office box, stop using currency.. and go to the barter system, and you don't have to pay taxes if it means so much to you.

I have no problem paying taxes. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of the system.

As for prayer in school. the landmark decision .. in 1962 was brought by religious people who said having the school lead a prayer to 'almight god' was against their religious view..

Mind you, that is school lead prayer.. over the intercom. Students, on their own, have the right to pray, or not.

Many a prayer has gone out in public schools to this very day, particularly right before the math test.

I dont know where you get that the removal of prayer from school was spearheaded by religious folk. You seem to be a bit ill informed on the matter. You may want to consider a different source. Here is a snip from American atheists site.

Now in its fourth decade, American Atheists is dedicated to working for the civil rights of atheists, promoting separation of state and church, and providing information about atheism.

The organization was founded by Madalyn Murray O'Hair, the noted atheist activist, as the result of her successful battle against mandatory school prayer and Bible recitation.
http://atheists.org/

[Goat]

I feel discriminated against by the IRS because they give me no choice in paying taxes.

You have the choice of not paying 'em, and potentially going to jail.

That you don't like the choice offered doesn't mean there ain't one being offered.

And atheists can close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears during prayer time in schools. Everything in life is about choice. But the IRS is not giving me a choice of paying or not paying. If I don't pay they come and take everything I own. So no I don't have a choice and thus I am discriminated against.

Not only that but I am taxed everywhere I go. At the pump, at the cash register, at the restaurant. So in these cases they just take it without offering a choice.

So, give up your social security number, give up your post office box, stop using currency.. and go to the barter system, and you don't have to pay taxes if it means so much to you.

I have no problem paying taxes. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of the system.

As for prayer in school. the landmark decision .. in 1962 was brought by religious people who said having the school lead a prayer to 'almight god' was against their religious view..

Mind you, that is school lead prayer.. over the intercom. Students, on their own, have the right to pray, or not.

Many a prayer has gone out in public schools to this very day, particularly right before the math test.

I dont know where you get that the removal of prayer from school was spearheaded by religious folk. You seem to be a bit ill informed on the matter. You may want to consider a different source. Here is a snip from American atheists site.

Now in its fourth decade, American Atheists is dedicated to working for the civil rights of atheists, promoting separation of state and church, and providing information about atheism.

The organization was founded by Madalyn Murray O'Hair, the noted atheist activist, as the result of her successful battle against mandatory school prayer and Bible recitation.
http://atheists.org/

However, the mandatory school prayer was the result of the supreme court ruling in 1962.. ..can you point to her involvement in that?

[Zetesis Apistia]

I feel discriminated against by the IRS because they give me no choice in paying taxes.

You have the choice of not paying 'em, and potentially going to jail.

That you don't like the choice offered doesn't mean there ain't one being offered.

And atheists can close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears during prayer time in schools. Everything in life is about choice. But the IRS is not giving me a choice of paying or not paying. If I don't pay they come and take everything I own. So no I don't have a choice and thus I am discriminated against.

Not only that but I am taxed everywhere I go. At the pump, at the cash register, at the restaurant. So in these cases they just take it without offering a choice.

So, give up your social security number, give up your post office box, stop using currency.. and go to the barter system, and you don't have to pay taxes if it means so much to you.

I have no problem paying taxes. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of the system.

As for prayer in school. the landmark decision .. in 1962 was brought by religious people who said having the school lead a prayer to 'almight god' was against their religious view..

Mind you, that is school lead prayer.. over the intercom. Students, on their own, have the right to pray, or not.

Many a prayer has gone out in public schools to this very day, particularly right before the math test.

I dont know where you get that the removal of prayer from school was spearheaded by religious folk. You seem to be a bit ill informed on the matter. You may want to consider a different source. Here is a snip from American atheists site.

Now in its fourth decade, American Atheists is dedicated to working for the civil rights of atheists, promoting separation of state and church, and providing information about atheism.

The organization was founded by Madalyn Murray O'Hair, the noted atheist activist, as the result of her successful battle against mandatory school prayer and Bible recitation.
http://atheists.org/

However, the mandatory school prayer was the result of the supreme court ruling in 1962.. ..can you point to her involvement in that?

Murray versus Curlett

[Goat]

However, the mandatory school prayer was the result of the supreme court ruling in 1962.. ..can you point to her involvement in that?

Murray versus Curlett[/quote]


Yet, the first one was 1961.. Engel v. Vitale.

And the supreme court ruling in 1962,, while expanding the original ruling, also dealt with some religious people, and combined that case, and Abington School District v. Schempp, which was a religious person complaining about specific sections of leviticus being read.

[Bust Nak]

So please explain to me how atheist wonderboy is a victim because he had to listen to an opening prayer when a pluralistic audience of many faiths comes together and a prayer is offered ... like for honoring dead Soldiers?

That depends if he was forced to partake or not.

It's too much to sit in silence and allow others to express their protected speech?

It's not the listening part that is the problem, it's the being forced part that is too much.

He did skip church, for four years, and was about to graduate anyway.

So clearly the army accepts that ones freedom of religion or free speech is not harm when he skip church.

In short, we are searching for excuses to be victims, when in fact, its just whining. Once we conceed the point that prayers are protected religious speech ... atheist wonderkid is simply being a jerk.

We haven't established that yet.

That is interesting, because there ARE mandatory drinking events. I can drink a coke rather than a beer.

Are there? It seems weird that one is forced into attenting drinking events.

I can act as a designated driver. And drinking is merely legal, not exactly enshrined as a right in the US Constitution.

Well that's kinda important isn't it? His enshrined right in the US Constitution is being affected.

And no one, save atheists looking to excuse one of their own self made victims, would consider it 'intelligent' to resign and give up serving your country and your friends .... because they drink?

Well that depends on how much they care about drunkness, and as you pointed out above, unlike the example with drinking, not having to listen to people pray is enshrined as a right in the US Constitution.

And are allowed to make that choice? I should walk around forcing my values on others or quitting? Wonderful choice atheists.

How about you do neither, so that atheistd wouldn't be faced with the choice of having values forced on to them or quitting?

Not only that, but when we force our values on others ... like say prohibition, what happens? What happens when people attempt to force the removal of religion?

People fight back, much like what atheists are doing now.

SO we should, in addition to being basically jerks about our values, ALSO just throw out history and its analysis?

No, the question is why the army wants to do it, and why you support said jerks.

And atheists keep assuring me that its evidence rather than emotion that drives them. I clearly see the opposite.

The evidence says otherwise.

Well, whatever excuse floats your boat.

And it's a great excuse, at least for people who care about freedom.