Non-Circular reasons for believing in the Bible.

[help3434]

I often see people quote Bible verses about scripture when asked why they believe in the Bible. Of course arguing that the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true is circular. Are there any non-circular reasons for believing in the Bible?

[1213]

Do you know why you believe it in the first place?

Because everything it says seems to be correct.

[kayky]

Now, several former Mormons have alluded to this. I am not a 'former' Mormon. I'm a TBM. But it seems to me that this 'number 11' reason for believing/finding an outside source of confirmation for the divine nature of the bible is the only possible way of dealing with the circular nature of all the other 'proofs' put forward for it, and it also seems to me that the only possible outside confirmation for the divine/scriptural nature of it can be God--through the 'holy spirit' or the 'Holy Ghost' or answer to direct prayer.

Is it subjective? Of course. But then it would have to be, wouldn't it?

crickets. I hear crickets.

Literally. It's 2AM and the only sound here is crickets chirping. That's not unusual; one expects that. However, I'm having a surreal experience with this thread...a couple of posters (who no longer believe) and I, who do, have all mentioned the only logical way to confirm the divine nature of the bible....

and crickets chirp.

As if the syllables we write are miraculously invisible.

The thing is, there are events and people in the bible which can be independently verified as having existed, or occurred. Finding those does not prove the bible to be scripture (divinely inspired). There is quite a bit of mythology in the bible (mythology in the formal sense, meaning, 'cultural and religious creation stories,' not 'mythology' as 'impossible and untrue stories') , but mythology isn't always UNtrue...however, it cannot be proven true or untrue as a divine lesson empirically. Parables are generally 'true,' in terms of the lessons taught by them.

There is only one way to find out if the bible is divine/scripture. Only one possible way. The 'author' has to confirm it. One has to ask Him. Yes, that raises a couple of other questions, but those questions are independent of whether or not the bible is scripture.

So why is this obvious point being completely ignored, here?

This is the problem I have with your position, Dianaiad. Being raised a fundamentalist Christian, I firmly believed the Bible was the word of God. I had many experiences of God that I believed confirmed this to be so. By the time I was 30, however, I could no longer accept this intellectually. Eventually I learned to read the Bible in a different way--but not as the word of God. My experiences of God continue.

What is my conclusion from this? God responds to us in spite of our beliefs--not because of them.

[kayky]

Really?

Here's a question for you....and it's serious. In actuality, I have come across this issue in Christianity as a whole, never mind other religions.

Have you EVER seen anybody but a Mormon tell you to go ask God if something (esp. the bible) is true? As in...actually ask God for confirmation?

Because I haven't.

Ever.

I suppose this is one of the many reasons I am not a Mormon. But I would like to ask you to describe an actual experience to me in which you asked God a specific question and he gave you a specific answer.

[kayky]

As someone who was raised a Mormon number 11 is the reason I am most familiar with for believing in scripture, but it seems to be much less common for other Christians that believe in the Bible than for Mormons believing in scripture.

Number 11? What does this mean?

[no evidence no belief]

[Replying to post 31 by dianaiad]

The thing is, Dianaiad, is that people have felt the some way about conflicting beliefs, like the teachings of the Koran. Doesn't that suggests that such feelings aren't a reliable way to find truth?

Really?

Here's a question for you....and it's serious. In actuality, I have come across this issue in Christianity as a whole, never mind other religions.

Have you EVER seen anybody but a Mormon tell you to go ask God if something (esp. the bible) is true? As in...actually ask God for confirmation?

Because I haven't.

Ever.

You are correct that no other religion is so utterly absurd as to believe in God based on the Bible, and then ask God if the Bible is real.

That's like believing in Gandalf because you read about him in the Lord of the Rings, and then getting confirmation for your belief by asking Gandalf if the Lord of the Rings is real.

It's like believing in Peter Pan on the basis of the book, and getting confirmation by asking Peter Pan if the book is real.

"The tooth fairy is real because the fairy tale says so, and the fairy tale is true because the tooth fairy is real"

"God is real because the Bible says so, the Bible is real because God says so".

It's circular and it's an insult to the beauty of the human brain.

I appreciate the open mindedness and Christ-like humility that it must take for you to admit that your belief system encompasses such intellectual pornography. I would be ashamed to admit that I was the victim of the kind of indoctrination that would make such circular insanity seem reasonable to me.

[help3434]

[Replying to post 44 by no evidence no belief]

What are you talking about? Nobody said that you had to believe it before asking.

[help3434]

[Replying to post 43 by kayky]

Above that post it says it is a reply to post number 2. Read post number 2.

[help3434]

Do you know why you believe it in the first place?

Because everything it says seems to be correct.

So in Genesis 1 it sounds correct when it talks about God dividing the waters with the firmament, and about creating the stars After He as already created light, dry land, and plants?

[kayky]

[Replying to post 43 by kayky]

Above that post it says it is a reply to post number 2. Read post number 2.

LOL. I'm laughing at myself. I thought maybe the number 11 had some kind of significance to Mormons!

[McCulloch]

As someone who was raised a Mormon number 11 is the reason I am most familiar with for believing in scripture, but it seems to be much less common for other Christians that believe in the Bible than for Mormons believing in scripture.

Number 11? What does this mean?

I believe that help3434 is referring to the list of reasons I made back in Post 2.

Reasons often given for believing in the Bible:

1. It's honesty in describing the faults of its heroes.
2. It has been preserved for thousands of years, evidence of God's providential oversight of this holy text.
3. The circular and false claim that the Bible itself claims to be from God.
4. The miracles, witnessed and recorded in the Bible. Again circular.
5. The subjective claim that the over forty writers of the Bible exhibit a profound unity of theme, thought and message. Or that it is a profoundly unique literary achievement, explainable only by divine revelation. That the ethics taught in the Bible are so enormously different from any other ethical system made by humanity that it must be Divine.
6. It's historical and geographical accuracy. Ignore the historical and geographical inaccuracies in order to use this one.
7. The circular reasoning that Jesus himself appealed to scriptures.
8. The incredibly weak and somewhat circular argument from fulfilled prophesy.
9. The subjective claim that the Bible profoundly changes lives.
10. Some even claim that the writers of the Bible had unexplained insights into scientific truths. Again, ignore the scientific inaccuracies. Those are just metaphors.
11. And finally, some make the subjective, but not circular claim that the Holy Spirit attests to the validity of the Bible.