Only two different types of belief

[atheist buddy]

In my opinion there are only two types of beliefs.

Examples of type 1 beliefs
Planet earth is approximately globe shaped, 2+2=4, my mother loves me, Los Angeles is west of Chicago, I have a million dollars in my bank account, humans have 23 chromosome pairs, Napoleon was born on August 15th 1769, Bradd Pitt is married to Angelina Jolie


Examples of type 2 beliefs
Jesus was born of a virgin, Mohammed flew into heaven on the back of a winged white horse, there is an alien space ship hiding behind the Hale-Bopp comet which you can teleport to by committing suicide, Apollo causes the sun to rise eveyr morning by carrying it up into the sky on a charriot, the Lock Ness monster exists, Frosty the Snow man occasionally comes to life, Santa delivers gifts from his invisible North Pole factory to millions of homes every Christmas night.

What do all type 1 beliefs have in common? They are all supported by empirical evidence.

What do all type 2 beliefs have in common? They are all NOT supported by empirical evidence, and in many cases contradicted by empirical evidence


If you are religious, which type do your religious beliefs fall into?

If type 1, can you please spell out what your beliefs are, and what the empirical evidence for them is?

If type 2, can you please outline what justification there is for believing your specific type 2 belief and not any other type 2 belief?

If you agree that they are not type 1, but assert that they don't belong in type 2 either, could you please outline what attributes your beliefs have that differentiate them from type 2 beliefs?

[RaiderGonzo]

In my opinion there are only two types of beliefs.

Examples of type 1 beliefs
Planet earth is approximately globe shaped, 2+2=4, my mother loves me, Los Angeles is west of Chicago, I have a million dollars in my bank account, humans have 23 chromosome pairs, Napoleon was born on August 15th 1769, Bradd Pitt is married to Angelina Jolie


Examples of type 2 beliefs
Jesus was born of a virgin, Mohammed flew into heaven on the back of a winged white horse, there is an alien space ship hiding behind the Hale-Bopp comet which you can teleport to by committing suicide, Apollo causes the sun to rise eveyr morning by carrying it up into the sky on a charriot, the Lock Ness monster exists, Frosty the Snow man occasionally comes to life, Santa delivers gifts from his invisible North Pole factory to millions of homes every Christmas night.

What do all type 1 beliefs have in common? They are all supported by empirical evidence.

What do all type 2 beliefs have in common? They are all NOT supported by empirical evidence, and in many cases contradicted by empirical evidence


If you are religious, which type do your religious beliefs fall into?

If type 1, can you please spell out what your beliefs are, and what the empirical evidence for them is?

If type 2, can you please outline what justification there is for believing your specific type 2 belief and not any other type 2 belief?

If you agree that they are not type 1, but assert that they don't belong in type 2 either, could you please outline what attributes your beliefs have that differentiate them from type 2 beliefs?

I'm of the type 2. Please forgive me for injecting myself into this topic as I am not of a scientific background. I am of a spiritual background. The reasons for my faith in the unseen is life's experience; it is heartfelt.

Life itself, coupled by reason is sufficient enough for me to think that it did not just happen by accident., it did not evolve out of nothing., it has forever been existent in whom we call God.

Now, you may ask, why the one religious experience over another? Who's right? Well, you can know who's right by the life example that they demonstrate.

If the life they lead is filled with controversy, well, you know that they don't make sense.

But if the life they live is exemplary, then you have nothing to accuse them of and, you know that what lives in their hearts and minds are what their living soul are all about. Either for doing right, or for doing wrong, each person lives according to what is in their hearts!

The physical realm of things only serves to highlight the spiritual realm in a man's heart, and there's no contradiction there when it comes to "empirical" evidence," IMO.

[1213]

This is an example of what religion can do to people.

I would ask that even without any religions, because I just don’t accept claims that are not reasonable. So I think you should not blame religion, it has really nothing to do with that.

[Divine Insight]

This is an example of what religion can do to people.

I would ask that even without any religions, because I just don’t accept claims that are not reasonable. So I think you should not blame religion, it has really nothing to do with that.

You think that it's not reasonable that the earth is spinning on its axis?

So you think it's more reasonable that the whole universe is spinning around us and we are perfectly stationary?

[1213]

You think that it's not reasonable that the earth is spinning on its axis?

I have no reason to believe it.

So you think it's more reasonable that the whole universe is spinning around us and we are perfectly stationary?

I have as much reason to believe to stationary earth as to rotating earth.

[Divine Insight]

You think that it's not reasonable that the earth is spinning on its axis?

I have no reason to believe it.

So you think it's more reasonable that the whole universe is spinning around us and we are perfectly stationary?

I have as much reason to believe to stationary earth as to rotating earth.

If you can claim this then what would make you claim to have reason to believe in ancient fables about a hateful monster God?

I will grant you one thing. You have proven to me beyond any reasonable doubt that you have no ability to debate or reason. And apparently you have just confessed that you have no ability to reason at all because you have just stated that you have as much reason to believe the earth is stationary as to believe that it is spinning. Therefore you necessarily must have no ability to reason at all.

[atheist buddy]

You think that it's not reasonable that the earth is spinning on its axis?

I have no reason to believe it.

So you think it's more reasonable that the whole universe is spinning around us and we are perfectly stationary?

I have as much reason to believe to stationary earth as to rotating earth.

Is there anybody on this forum that would like to step forward and say this: "I stand by 1213. I think his worldview is thoughtful and rational. If more people had the reasoning skills that he displays in this forum, the world would be a better place. I identify with 1213. I think he makes a lot of sense. The reason that we have similar beliefs, is that we think in similar ways. I am similar to 1213. His arguments seem accurate to me".

Anybody?

[Zzyzx]

.

I have no reason to believe it [that the Earth rotates on its axis].

I have as much reason to believe to stationary earth as to rotating earth.

I find it difficult to accept that a person living in an advanced technological nation with a highly acclaimed and respected education system would not know better than the above indicates.

Note: Finland, 1213's claimed location, has an education system described as:

Since it implemented huge education reforms 40 years ago, Finland's school system has consistently come at the top for the international rankings for education systems.
http://www.businessinsider.com/finland- ... 11-12?op=1

SOMETHING appears to be amiss.

[Divine Insight]

SOMETHING appears to be amiss.

I don't see where there is anything amiss.

It seems to me that all we have here is a theist who is making unreasonable statements in an effort to support an unreasonable mythology.

Is this something new?

It seems to me this is pretty much par for the course.

I haven't seen a decent case for these mythologies on these forums yet. In fact, I haven't seen a decent case for these mythologies from any source whatsoever. Even the most highly acclaimed apologists have never said anything convincing.

And this isn't just me. Just look around at the religious factions. Do we see any specific religious apologists who have even convinced religious people that any particular religious dogma makes any sense?

No we haven't. They can't even convince each other.

So this is most certainly not just me. Even the apologists themselves dismiss each others views as being absurd.

The proof is in the apologetic pudding.

There is no such thing as a convincing apologist. They simply don't exist.

[atheist buddy]

SOMETHING appears to be amiss.

I don't see where there is anything amiss.

I have to agree with DI and disagree with Zz.

It's a fact that, however unfortunate, good education does NOT insulate theists from extremism. Brainwashing, dogmatism and indoctrination can often immunize an individual against reasoned arguments.

Let's not forget that the 19 hijackers that carried out the 9-11 attacks were predominantly highly educated: Architects, Engineers, Lawyers.

Zzz, I think that as a sensible, skeptical, mainstream person, you are falling now in the trap that Sam Harris often warns us about: You have great difficulty taking these extremists at their word when they claim to believe what they claim to believe. I feel your pain. Because I have a hard time wrapping my head around it too. It would seem impossible that someone in the 21st century, living in a nation with one of the best education systems, doesn't accept relativity or the spin of the earth on its axis.

I guess we will never know what's really going on in 1213's head. He could be sincere, or he could just be messing with us. It's pontless to speculate, or to try to infer intention beyond the face value of the words he writes.

But let's not kid ourselves. If he is sincere, he wouldn't be unique in his twisted, illogical, dysfunctional worldview.

If he truly believes what he says he believes, he is just one of many.

And if his beliefs inform his action to no greater degree than his outrageous comments on this forum, we can consider ourselves lucky, because he could have been among the thousands who die or who's children die because they refuse blood transfusions. Or among the thousands who stone their daughters and sisters to death when they are raped.

[ttruscott]

...

I have as much reason to believe to stationary earth as to rotating earth.

Is there anybody on this forum that would like to step forward and say this: "I stand by 1213. I think his worldview is thoughtful and rational. If more people had the reasoning skills that he displays in this forum, the world would be a better place. I identify with 1213. I think he makes a lot of sense. The reason that we have similar beliefs, is that we think in similar ways. I am similar to 1213. His arguments seem accurate to me".

Anybody?

I have no means to asses which is turning, the earth or the universe. Assessments by others are hearsay as we have no proof their thinking isn't flawed or cooked to confirm a bias since no empirical experiment can be performed or replicated. Materialistic (and scientific) thought has come to the wrong conclusions before... and what you think you see is not always what we get.

Materialistic science views spiritual things as gobblety-gook and fantasies but the so called higher math that they use to prove things (and then argue incessantly about what it is they have proven) is just gobblety-gook and therefore maybe fantasy to me.

One doesn't understand spiritual and the other doesn't understand math. So be it. If they consider that their understanding of string theory and quantum theory gives them the right to judge spiritual things, should not those who understand spiritual things be considered experts on material things? Is the absurdity of this only flowing one way?

Science cannot even prove that the physical universe exists rather than just being taken for granted. They cannot prove the Buddhists are wrong and all is not just an illusion. So from where springs the elitist attitudes that allow them to call unproven spiritual things at best imaginations and at worst insanity?

Peace, Ted